Unlocking Life's Potential
Episode Summary:
Episode 4 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Lama Justin von Bujdoss from Yangti Yoga. Justin is an American Buddhist teacher and chaplain ordained in the Karma Kamtsang tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. Deeply invested in the preservation and adaptation of Tantric Buddhist tradition in the West, Justin shares his experiences as an ordained Repa, a position emphasizing householder tradition. He discusses his past work at the New York City Department of Corrections, the use of plant medicines in spiritual practice, and the importance of integrating meditation into everyday life. Justin also talks about his efforts in preserving Tantric Buddhist tradition through innovative methods, one of which is his aligning of Vajrayana teachings with social justice causes and environmental activism.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introduction and Justin’s Background
04:44 The Role of Monasticism and the Alternative As A Householder
11:46 The Paradox of Renunciation in Householder Practice
19:03 The Power of Tantra and Its Contrast with Dzogchen and Mahamudra
23:19 The Profundity of the Ordinary Moment in Practice
35:19 Integrating Teachings with Plant Medicines such as Iboga
42:49 The Role of Plant Medicine in Vajrayana Buddhism
55:53 The Importance of Shorter Meditation Sessions in the Integration of Practice In Daily Life
01:03:00 The Inevitability of Death and the Practice of Dharma
Guest Bio:
Justin von Bujdoss is an American Buddhist teacher and chaplain.
He was ordained as a repa in the Karma Kamstang tradition of Tibetan Buddhism by His Eminence Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche in 2011 and given the name Repa Dorje Odzer.
From 2012 until 2017 Justin served as the resident-lama and executive director of New York Tsurphu Goshir Dharma Center, an urban dharma organization which functioned as an affiliate of Palchen Chosling Monastic Institute, Ralang, Sikkim, India. Up until last year, Justin worked as the first dedicated Staff Chaplain for the New York City Department of Correction, providing spiritual support for the 13,000 employees, both uniformed and non-uniformed, who work through out the New York City Corrections system.
Justin is the author of Modern Tantric Buddhism: Authenticity and Embodiment in Dharma Practice published by North Atlantic Books, and a contributor to Buddhism and Whiteness: Critical Reflections published by Lexington Books. He is also a co-founder of Bhumisparsha, an experimental Buddhist sangha along with Lama Rod Owens, and Yangti Yoga, a retreat center rooted in the practice of dark retreat along with Dr. Nida Chenagtsang.
Full Transcript
Adrian: I'm Adrian Baker, and this is Redesigning the Dharma. Today, I'm speaking with Justin von Bujdoss.
Justin is an American Buddhist teacher and chaplain. He was ordained as a Repa in the Karma Kamtsang tradition of Tibetan Buddhism by his eminence Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche in 2011 and given the name Repa Dorje Odzer.
Justin is passionate about the preservation of the heart essence of the Tantric Buddhist tradition in a way that meets the needs of, and simultaneously challenges, the modern Western way of life. He is committed to the development of a Repa tradition rooted in the West and has been working to this end for a number of years.
From 2012 until 2017, Justin served as the Resident Lama and Executive Director of New York Sherpa Goshir Dharma Center, an urban dharma [00:01:00] organization which functioned as an affiliate of Palchen Chosling Monastic Institute, in Ralang, Sikkim, India.
Justin is presently the first dedicated staff chaplain for the New York City Department of Corrections. We provide spiritual support for the 13, 000 employees, both uniformed and non uniform, in New York City. Actually, as you'll hear in our conversation, Justin recently in the last year, left that role, which he did for many years, and is now focusing primarily on dark retreat, among his other teaching responsibilities.
Justin has also worked in the past as a full time hospice chaplain and is trained in clinical pastoral education as well as Buddhist end of life practices and spiritual care.
Justin has taught on Buddhist end of life care and teaches Dharma in a variety of settings from monasteries, retreat centers, and Dharma centers, to hospital didactics, CPE groups, and at conferences and museums.
So, I wanted to have Justin on for a number of reasons. I really have a great deal of respect and admiration for him, and definitely also [00:02:00] feel affinity for him with his style of teaching and practice. In terms of his commitment to transmitting and emphasizing a householder tradition within the tantric traditions that really goes back to the essence of tantra in the Mahasiddhas and before Tantra went to Tibet and became monasticized, which was also a very beautiful part of the tradition. But, in some ways Tantra did take a different direction from that point.
Justin's someone who is, I think, very innovative as a Vajrayana teacher in many ways. And one of those is his openness to working with plant medicines and connecting that with a Vajrayana path. In his case, that's Iboga, so we talk about that.
There's a lot to talk about that was interesting in this conversation with Justin, and he's someone I could speak to a number of times, I'm sure, and never hit the bottom of the topics that I'd love to cover with him.
So, without further ado, here is my conversation with Lama Justin.
Justin, thank you so much for joining me on the Redesigning the Dharma podcast and I just really want to thank you for your time. It's nice to [00:03:00] have a teacher and a friend on. I see you doing some very interesting things things in your teaching and practice.
And you've come from this traditional background at the same time. So I find that very interesting. And so I'd love to get into that with you.
And perhaps we can just start by sharing a bit about your lineage, especially 'cause I know you come from a householder lineage with Dr. Nida and maybe sharing a bit about what makes that distinct within Vajrayana for those who might not be familiar that.
Lama Justin: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. No, thank you, Adrian. It's a pleasure to be here with you.
I guess the answer to this question, has, has taken me decades to, to kind of arrive at. Uh, you know, I initially connected to Dharma through the Karma Kagyu tradition which has a really rich and distinct early history what you of being connected to what you could call the yogic traditions.
For example, Tilopa and from medieval India and then Marpa coming down from Tibet bringing a lot of Dharma up to Tibet. And then his main student, [00:04:00] or most famous student, perhaps you could say, was Milarepa right?
And Repa was famous obviously for his practice Um, and his biography is really inspiring. But also what's interesting about him is that he had classically, two main students.
What we know, at least in contemporary hagiography, was a sun-like student which was Gampopa who was a monk, then the moon-like student who was Rechungpa, who was also a And over time, you know, this monastic tradition kind of uh, became prominent throughout Tibet.
And so when I came to interact with the Karma Kagyu tradition, most of the kind of points of intersection, this was all in Sikkim in the Darjeeling area where the mona... was monastic.
At an early age, I actually thought I was going to become a monastic. And I came very, very close at about half a day or three hours away from ordaining as a monastic with this wonderful teacher in Sikkim named Pathing Rinpoche. And [00:05:00] before a I ordained I I went to go see my teacher, who was a Signius nun, and I ran the idea past her, and she was, she was like, you know, this is a, this is a terrible idea. This is not this is not a good idea.
You know, basically telling me, you know, you don't know who you are. You know, you, you think you need to be a monastic because all these people, you know, seem to kind of propagate that idea, but you don't really need to do that.
And at the time, she was like, why don't you focus on being kind of like a hidden yogi kind of thing. And so, so that was resonant for me. And I kind of, you know, went along with this and then you know, my root teacher away and then I continued to study with Pathing Rinpoche and then Bokar Rinpoche, and then Gyaltsab Rinpoche. And at some point I ended up training to be a chaplain in the U.S. and part of the training involves working towards the achievement of a position as clergy.
And [00:06:00] what I began to become really, really interested in, in terms of personal study and then, this kind of aspect of practice that I really gravitate to was this period of time when Dharma was being transmitted from India to Tibet.
And from the this transference of Vajrayana from one milieu like what you find or found in, in what we might call medieval India at time moving up to Tibet. And similarly, I became very interested in this movement of Vajrayana from East to West. All of this kind of led me to begin to identify with Milarepa and this kind of yogic tradition. And so, it actually started off with my receiving Repa ordination from his Eminence Gyatsab Rinpoche in the Karma Kaju tradition, kind of linking me directly to this yogic tradition that exists within within the Karma Kaju Back to Rechungpa and Milarepa a lot of Milarepa's [00:07:00] Repa students.
Adrian: Sorry to interject Justin. Just for people who might not know is, and for myself, is Repa a term that's signifying specifically a householder?
Lama Justin: Exactly. Householder, non-celibate. You know, yogan or yogini. And so, I've been kind of, you know, following this and primarily of the main commitments relate to the practice of Vajrayogini and the six yogas of Naropa.
And then very recently, I also connected with Dr. Nida Cenagtsang or not very recently, but since about 2016. And then connecting, especially with him in his role as a Nakba, which is what you find in the Nyingma tradition of this yogic background. Which he is very well ensconced in. And he comes from the Rebkong Nakba community in central Tibet.
And then actually very recently I received ordination within the Yuto Ntic as a Nakba as well. So kind of bringing the Kaju and the [00:08:00] Nyingma, yogic lineage practice, I guess you could say together. And, and this feels exceptionally meaningful for me because I'm a parent, I'm married, right?
I, I enjoy my family. And I also don't see the necessity of propagating a monastic practice background for myself because it's not particularly applicable.
And then I also see this as a way of modeling an alternative to, or for other people who are really interested in going more deeply into their practice, but feel that assumption that one has to become a monastic complicates things for folks.
Adrian: Yes.
Lama Justin: You know? And it really complicates things for people quite a bit. I... what doesn't get discussed enough is the kind of spiritual pain and spiritual confusion that can be created, assuming that, oh, you know, if I'm a really serious practitioner, if I want to be really serious about my practice, I need to be celibate, and I need to ordain, and I need to do all these things...
You know, these are, these are not [00:09:00] bad disciplines to focus on in terms of practice. But they're also not inherently necessary, right? And I think that, maybe also in the west, I don't know how true this is, but it could be that, it's a combination of a little bit of romanticism, like, oh, I need to give stuff up in order to practice, and so people kind of get wrapped up in that, and then I feel feel like there's some element of needing to sublimate one's relationship to practice into something higher. And there's an automatic assumption that monasticism is just higher. And I don't believe that's true.
And, and there's this long lineage that also says, we don't believe that this isn't, you know, necessarily true either.
Adrian: That's the interesting thing I find about Vajrayana. On the one hand, it's very monasticized and systematized, but they have this yogi tradition, whereas in other forms of dharma, you know, Theravada, it's renunciate.
And even in Zen, interesting 'cause it's very well designed and [00:10:00] integrated into community, but I've heard contemporary Zen practitioners talk about this, it's like where they, yes, you can be a lay practitioner, but there's this power dynamic and there's definitely an unspoken sometimes, or even spoken status differential between being a monastic and a lay practitioner.
Lama Justin: Sure, It's interesting because, within the context of Vajrayana, we will sometimes find approaches that remind the practitioner that what we're working towards is disrupting the habituation with respect to how we relate to appearance and this can be achieved in many different ways, right? So there's not just one flavor.
I've met a lot of monastics who the choice to become a monastic was probably the absolute best choice available to them for a whole host of reasons, right? Not just the feeling that, that, "oh, if I'm a monastic, my practice will be more serious."
So, you know, some people really need and benefit from renunciation. And I, I totally respect that. But there's this [00:11:00] kind of saying, you know, there either you could say there are as many pathways to awakening as there are people. Or you know, you also find, you know, there are 84,000, different pathways to awakening, which is basically kind of saying the same thing.
And when you look at the Vajrayana tradition in particular, you find models presented in terms of hagiography, like for example, in the lives of the 84 Maha(siddha) or other collections of similar kinds of biographical material that demonstrates that, the key piece is perhaps, what you bring to Dharma, right? That That energy and that intention. You know, the genuine desire to transform one's own mind is the key thing. And then everything else can be secondary or tertiary depending on circumstance.
Adrian: As a household practitioner, what does renunciation mean to you?
Lama Justin: my primary practices these days are Dzogchen and Mahamudra. Within the context of Dzgochen, Trekchö and then Tögal mostly in [00:12:00] the form of dark retreat. And I guess you could say that if I have made a vow to try to liberate everything that arises into the Rigpa state, right?
Or into the view you find in either Atiyoga or Mahamudra and so renunciation takes that form right? Where everything is more or less allowed Um, you know, as long as it doesn't hurt other people, you know, other beings.
There's a commitment to this. There's a commitment to the root and branch Samaya vows that you find in the Vajrayana tradition.
And then, you know, the, a commitment to the Bodhisattva vow and the Pratimoksha vows. But the key piece is trying as much as possible to rest into the natural state and bring the highs and the lows, right, the beauties and the headaches of being a parent or being a partner, you know, living in New York City spending seven days a week teaching dharma, [00:13:00] making myself available for others, all these kinds of things.
But really trying to use, all of it or approach all of it from the standpoint of touching into the Rigpa state.
Adrian: I think that's something me as well. And I mean, I came to Dzogchen after doing some Insight practice like Mahasi Sayadaw style, and what you said really aligns with my own practice in that I had to find a view of awakening I think that was in accordance with householder life. If you don't basically want spend your life on retreat, otherwise, if we have a view of, and an approach to practice where our practice, for example, is really dependent on a certain momentum of concentration, a very high degree of concentration, it's ultimately just really hard to reconcile that daily life.
Or that wasn't the kind of practice that helped me as much when I was stuck in traffic. Not that, not that it can't, the noting iss very effective, but what the whole view of awakening is and coming across something where the natural state can just be [00:14:00] recognized in any given moment no matter what you're doing.
And so I think that's one thing I'd love to, to share with people and perhaps you can say more about here is a common thread I think in all of Dharma is that that first to the eightfold path right view, but the view actually differs quite a bit across different Dharma. And the interesting thing is, I find in some ways it's almost like they don't want to talk about it as much within different dharma communities because understandably they want to trace things back to the original source, to Buddha Shakyamuni, but one thing that interests me, I think, is these practices are becoming more open source; it's helping contemporary practitioners realize, like, actually they're really different kinds of Buddhisms, to borrow one phrase.
And the style that you practice, the view that you adopt, really can orient you in quite different ways.
Lama Justin: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, we could even take this even further in terms of how all of these traditions, whether they're Theravada and Mahayana or Vajrayana, are taking root here, right?[00:15:00]
One thing I'm really fascinated by is this process of acculturation. I don't think there ever has been like a one for one transference of style of dharma practice from one cultural milieu to another. So you find that Vajrayana Buddhism spread, for example, up to Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal, parts of Central Asia, and as it did, and this is very kind of normal is, the cultural impact of the new host location begins to kind of color and leave an imprint on Dharma. And in terms of how Dharma's practiced.
Within the context of Tibetan Buddhism, there is a very strong drive in many cases to try to preserve, quote unquote, the purity that you find in this transference from the Indian subcontinent up to Tibet.
However, the Terma tradition right, that you find in the Nyingma lineages is different. The Tulku system changed a lot of relationship to[00:16:00] like mountain gods and, and elements of Tibetan shamanistic practices helped create something very unique there.
And similarly, as it spreads from Tibet to Europe or to Americas, I think it's a very, healthy to assume that cultural change will happen as well within this.
So, when you mention multiple Buddhisms, I agree, and I think what you're beginning to also see is this difference between what I would call and, and a group of people seems to be calling this like, you know, new quote unquote indigenous Dharma in the West in comparison or in relationship to heritage Dharma, which is the way it is practiced in, for example, the Tibetan Plateau or Indian subcontinent, or Thailand, or Sri Lanka, or Bhutan, Nepal, et cetera.
And so these differences are manifesting as well. [00:17:00] And with any kind of period of new growth, they're also growing pains, right? So within the context of what we've kind of see arising in Tibet, in the transference of Dharma from India to Tibet, it took centuries.
And I, venture to guess that we'll take centuries assuming we have centuries you you know, with the, with the, you know, environmental crisis. But if we do have centuries, it will take at least a couple of generations, right, for us to see what actually kind of panned out and survived this kind initial transmission of Vajrayana Dharma in particular in the West.
I don't particularly expect most Dharma organizations, for example, to survive a couple hundred years. We'll see this kind of trickle, this growth, this manifestation continue and you'll be able to probably trace like lineal influence.
But if you look at it from the standpoint of kind of the long game the most important thing is that it develops and matures and wisdom that is [00:18:00] unlocked in the individual localities of where it's practiced, if that can continue and arise, then that's wonderful.
The key thing though, as you point out, is the maintenance of the multiple different kinds of view, So the view that you find in Mahamudra and Dzogchen is very different than you might find in kind of classical tantra.
The view that you find in classical tantra is different than you find in the Mahayana tradition. And then of course, you know, different than the Theravada tradition. And there are obviously points of overlap and points of connection. But I also think that, Western Dharma practitioners do benefit when they understand these differences rather than just look at everything as Buddhism with a capital B and it's all the same, right?
Because you know, again, like the view in tantra is shocking in relationship to, you know, what you find in a lot of the Theravadan tradition. And then even, you know, the view that you find in Dzogchen and Mahamudra can be shocking [00:19:00] for Tantricas as well, right?
Adrian: Can you say more about that point?
Lama Justin: Tantra is powerful. And it's powerful for a lot of reasons. one of its kind of core benefits is the use of symbolism, specific kinds of art, color, five Buddha families, for example, to help affect an experience of transformation of the practitioner from a being that might have originally identified more as a samsaric being into an awakened Buddha. And that is very powerful.
And when we start moving into the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, all of the work, all of the symbolism, all of the elaboration that you find within the context of tantra. Is overly complicated, right? It, it lacks the simplicity and the directness that you find in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
It's not to say, again, you know, none of these things should [00:20:00] ever be said as absolutes, right? Because you could take the view of Atiyoga or Mahamudra and apply it to deity practice, or this practice of visualizing oneself as a, as a perfectly formed Buddha, reciting the mantra, trying to hear the sound and energy of the deity, the location of where one is as the location of the deity, the perfect mandala.
And in one's own mind is the um, awakened mind of the deity. Essentially, the awakened mind of the deity is the pure stainless manifestation of Rigpa or awareness that you find in the Dzogchen tradition, and you could say spontaneous awareness that you find in the Mahamudra tradition. But both Dzogchen and Mahamudra oftentimes operate from a place of minimal effort and complexity and maximal simplicity.
The kind of ethos is, try to do as little as you can and rest into your natural [00:21:00] awakening, Which is, I mean, I remember the first time I ever heard these instructions, I was 20 India, in Bodh Gaya, I remember really connecting to them, but also finding them confusing, right? Because then, then one begins to wonder, well then what's all the effort, you know, that
Adrian: Right
Lama Justin: you find in other traditions? And so I guess my point is, is, that hopefully practitioners can be in this for the long haul and have to kind of like sift through a lot of this this over the course of a lifetime of practice.
And I think a lot of people do do that.
But I also see a lot of people kind of getting stuck in one particular location, which can be fine. But then it can also be a filled with, kind of blockages and, and difficult experiences and things like that.
Adrian: What are some of the common ways in which you see a lot of your students getting stuck along this path?
Lama Justin: Well, our ideas about things, right? I I think, you know, it, it, it is really worth beginning to of feel into the extent to which this kind of like Abrahamic[00:22:00] way of approaching duality really is endemic in the way we see most of the world around us.
I mean, you know, in one way we could see American foreign policy is rooted in this. The American criminal justice system is rooted in this. The American justice system is rooted in this. But ethos around what it means to be a good employee or employer is rooted
Adrian: Or a student even.
Lama Justin: it, or student, absolutely. How we view awakening. Ideas of even good and bad.
What I'm not saying is like, you know, oh, there are no ideas of good and bad. Do whatever you want. But what I am saying is, is the initial cleaving of things into good, bad, maybe middling, you know, the constant labeling is very automatic for most people, right?
So there's this process of, of needing to kind of decondition the way we relate to phenomena, see phenomena, et cetera.
So there's this impact of romanticization of dharma practice.[00:23:00] So people will look to the east over the west, right? This thing is, is your mind is the same in both places, right? you know, attachment is the same in both places. Like aversion the same in both places.
Adrian: That's how they came up with it.
Lama Justin: Yes, exactly.
Adrian: That's why it's universal.
Lama Justin: Exactly. And then, you know, the thing I noticed quite a bit, is the ordinary, the experience of the ordinary. I mean, you know, I think the one thing that happens as practice deepens does our appreciation of the profundity of the ordinary moment.
And I think early on though, as we begin to practice, it's very normal, I guess you could say, to be seeking to sublimate everything that we're experiencing It can't just be this, it needs to be better. It needs to be, you know, more clear. It needs to be more amazing. It needs to be more transcendent and...
And really like, you know, if you're practicing off the cushion, in life, you're going to have the in life [00:24:00] experience of boredom and fear and loss and love and connection and all of the things. Right?
Most things though are very ordinary. And a lot of people kind of get stuck looking for the ethereal, the transcendent, et cetera, which is really in some ways, I guess you could say, like a denial of letting things be whatever they are in the moment.
I saw this actually play out really clearly. I, I, you know, my root teacher, I met her in 1995, and she died in 1997, and as her health declined, she shared with me quite a bit of her dying process . Which included her sometimes just feeling low energy, or dull, or foggy, or disoriented.
And she was very intentional in showing me that you can, you could show up to these experiences, you know, the humdrum of a slow decline. And you can show up to these [00:25:00] with clarity, but it doesn't change the nature of the experience. It changes the way you grasp or feel aversion to the experience. when your body's low energy and you're feeling groggy or confused, and you show up in a Rigpa state to that, well, you're still feeling the same thing you know, but it's not as uh, filled with the suffering, and the woe is me kind of like, you know...
Adrian: Yeah. One thing that comes up for me when you were saying that last bit was sort of the paradox of talking to people about awakening. And here's where I find Ken Wilber's Integral Theory to be a helpful framework. Are you familiar at all with that?
Lama Justin: A little bit.
Adrian: A little bit. And even just the basics of it 'cause it can get very jargony for people, but you know, he talks about waking up, versus growing up, and he also talks about cleaning up. Cleaning up's like the shadow work, waking up is the awakening part, and growing up's, what we could think of as psychological development, you know, becoming a self-actualized human being.
And this is the paradox. It's, it's from the perspective [00:26:00] of waking up. You know, there is, certainly from Dzogchen or Mahamudra view, there's nowhere to go, nobody to become, nothing to attain. There's just consciousness and its contents, which is ultimately beyond concepts. And there's beautiful peace that can come from that, you know, that's always an already available to touch into that.
And at the same time, I think a view that we get, especially from Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and it came up for me when we talked about the renunciation conversation 'cause I sense that in those householder traditions, even when compared to something like Kashmir Shaivism, which is so similar in many ways, but there still can be a lot of language around abandoning renunciation with Dzogchen, and we do get this model of be the yogi, give up everything. And that makes sense to me if the goal of a meaningful life is basically just development along that continuum. It's tricky to use a word like development , but um, just waking up.
But [00:27:00] also we do want to seek. You know, we do wanna create things. We do want to go to new places and connect with people. There are projects.
Dopamine isn't just the next pleasure hit. Dopamine is also motivation. You know, which is one way I like to think of samsara is the dopamine hit going round and around.
So that is kind of the interesting thing I think that to talk about people with that paradox, and maybe I'm curious how you think about that of, describing that to students as, we can touch into that non-separation and sense of wholeness while also honoring, there's a different kind of, I don't know if we want to use the word seeking, but
Lama Justin: Mm-Hmm.
Adrian: activity, you know, that we do wanna partake in in daily life.
Lama Justin: With respect to the kind of diversity of activity that arises, this is very kind of individual, I think. You know, there are going to be some people who will connect, for example, to view you find in Atiyoga and Mahamudra and just kind of like stick with what they do in their lives, right? And [00:28:00] could be totally ordinary, could be, you know, does not have to be transcendent, they don't have to create an organization. They don't need to make a major contribution to the world of Dharma.
And then there's some people that will do that, right? The kind of need to help others achieve this kind of experience or deepening of experience becomes, a motivating factor.
I actually don't think too much about this stuff other than. letting people manifest things as feels appropriate for them. So, you know, I, I have, I have students who are college professors. I have students who are students in university. I have students who are elderly and preparing more or less for the wrap up of their life. Students who are young and new to Dharma, students who are recovering from abuse in dharma situations or other life experiences or substance abuse. Some are parents, some never want to be [00:29:00] parents. Some are trans, some are straight, some, you know... and, and I, I appreciate the diversity.
And I try to show people, at the very least that this is about awakening and it's not necessarily about productivity. Because, we are like really obsessed with that. Even the way dharma can be presented here is, everybody needs to leave their mark.
Have you ever read "How The Swans Came To The Lake?" It's a, it's really, amazing book on the history of transmission of various darma lineages from the East to the West. And so it begins with uh, early Zen traditions and, and the, the, the seeds being planted in Hawaii, in the late 18 hundreds. Hawaii and the west coast.
And then the early Theravada and teachers. And then all those people, you know, who left in the sixties to go to Asia and then come and bring things back. And then Tri Rinpoche or the Karmapa or Kalu Rinpoche, you know, all of these folks.
[00:30:00] And, it serves as a chronicle of the development of Dharma as we have seen it up until, too long ago. And though it also kind of, you know, creates this dynamic of everybody who practices Dharma needs to somehow innovate it.
What I spend a lot of time thinking about these days is at least in the context of Vajrayana, maybe 5% of the people that we know about are recorded. And then probably 95% of all of the Dharma practitioners are completely anonymous.
We don't know their names, we don't know their stories, right? These are the people that practiced in monasteries and in caves out in nature, you know, or at home. And that I find much more heartening because it orients me back to what is important, right?
And what is important ultimately is, is not the constant advancement of dharma. So I guess [00:31:00] what is the best way to advance Dharma is to manifest it, Is to fully engage it and fully practice it and let it trickle into you and let it, integrate. And you integrate with it and it integrate with, you know, surroundings, so for me in Brooklyn.
And if anything develops from that, well that's, that's wonderful, right. But, but the development piece shouldn't be the inspiring factor because this means that there's some other kind of, you know uh, intention . The intention to produce, the intention to move the needle.
Not bad, right.
Adrian: seen, a little egoic attachment.
Lama Justin: Or a lot of, a lot of, a lot of
Adrian: Yeah.
Lama Justin: ego attachment in some cases.
Adrian: Not so subtle.
Lama Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, and again, like, I, I don't, I won't begrudge anybody, you know, you can move any which way. You know, like I'm a cosmopolitan person, you know, it's fine with me.
But I also think that, spending time [00:32:00] observing allows us to have a tremendous amount of insight around what lasts. And the thing that lasts and thing that I think people pick up on is a integrated practice, right? The more integrated our practice is and the, the more authentic we are in it. And the benefit of that I think is palpable for people as opposed to the maintenance of a particular kind of brand or style of practice that looks good, but it might not necessarily have the grounding in in authentic experience.
Adrian: So yeah, one thing that comes up for me, when you talk about that is actually something that Khachab Rinpoche once said, where she said, and when we hear about the Bodhisattva vow we think it's, oh, I've gotta wake up for the benefit of all sentient beings and it's, that idea of salvation coming into our minds and she's like, actually just be awake, like in that moment. Moment after moment. We make it [00:33:00] into some grand thing but it's really quite simple.
Lama Justin: Yeah. No, I mean, all of the grandiosity of that narrative.
Adrian: Yeah.
Lama Justin: gets in the way for people, right? Again, it's a noble narrative. It's a noble goal. and the point isn't to not have that goal, but how to be very relaxed in it.
Yeah, some people put a lot of pressure on themselves and I see this, and you can see them kind of slowly begin to burn out because they assume that I need to liberate and every single person or each and every being I meet. Which again, is useful and not necessarily wrong, but I do see a lot of people burning out.
I see a lot of people kind a losing energy, inspiration... Sometimes people hit walls in terms of difficult emotions and this kind of thing. They don't understand necessarily how to reconcile personal need in relationship to the Bodhisattva vow, it becomes this kind of, excessive selflessness or an extreme selflessness that, verges on the edge of hurting,[00:34:00] oneself.
This kind of like Dzogchen, Mahamudra ethos of practicing in a relaxed way is beautiful. It's incredibly sophisticated in a way because it really asks people to chill out, right? And don't, don't
Adrian: Mm-Hmm.
Lama Justin: take yourself so seriously all the time, right? It's okay. And it's okay to make mistakes. You know, this is the other thing as well. I, frequently come across people who are very harsh with themselves around even the potentiality of making a mistake. And then when they do, they throw themselves into a hole. And are not particularly self-compassionate. And it could be a hard balance for a lot of people.
Adrian: Yes I'm struggling with it right now in this very moment. with recording in this house, which is a beautiful home and just absolutely not well designed at all. Like they're just not, I mean, not well designed for podcasts. There's just not outlets here, not in the right places. It's wanting it to be perfect, wanting it to be professional, and to be honest, there's a part of my mind [00:35:00] it just drives absolutely insane.
And then just noticing that, and just being able to, to let it go. Just equanimity.
Lama Justin: Yeah, letting it go. Practicing like a corpse, you know?
A corpse can't talk back. A corpse can't think. A corpse can't cogitate. And just letting that go. You know ultimately, who cares.
Adrian: Well, you know, this is an interesting segue to another thing that I wanted to talk to you about terms of adapting your teachings in the way you're integrating that with some plant medicines.
Because for me, you know, something that's been really helpful with that is, ayahuasca and soma, I find is just so synergistic with the Dzogchen practice in that there's no option... well, you've got two options you can resist or non-resist during what can be an incredibly challenging experience. And actually nothing that arises is an issue if you're not resisting .
And so I know you're doing some interesting work right now with Iboga! Offering an Iboga retreat. And I'd love to hear a little bit about that [00:36:00] offering, just starting with how you became interested with the Iboga plant teacher in the first place.
Lama Justin: Yeah. I'm leading a retreat with an organization in Portugal which focuses on Iboga. It's called Root Healing. this organization in Portugal run by a friend and a student of mine who trained as shaman in the Bwiti tradition in Gabon.
And their work primarily tends to be helping people who are struggling with substance abuse, usually opioid addiction leading Iboga ceremonies to be able to help cut intensity of that addiction. And also helping people through trauma and traumatic experiences.
And Iboga is one of the, the most powerful plant medicine I guess you could say, treatment modalities for opioid addiction. And Root Healing has done some really incredible work with that. And then working with people who suffer from very complicated trauma.
So I [00:37:00] first tried Iboga... Actually, it was just a matter of days. it was a seven days after I resigned from being the head chaplain and executive director for chaplaincy and staff wellness for New York City Department of Correction.
And, R yan reached out and was like, you know, I'd like to offer you a Iboga ceremony as a way to begin to unpack and release or treat or heal some of the trauma that was inherent in that work.
I worked on Rikers Island for five and a half years. Not just Rikers Island, but, but all New York City Department of Correction facilities which is all, all over the city and attending to staff in crisis in New York City emergency rooms, hospitals, staff deaths... Through Covid in particular where the staff death rate shot up 500%.
So I was caring a lot. And I was also really curious. I was like, okay, I know his story, you know, how does this directly apply to me?
So I, I did a ceremony with him it was really profound in ways that are still very hard to explain.[00:38:00]
And then he gave me a bunch of Iboga to have to microdose, which over the course of 2022 I did frequently. Primarily because there was this experience of great clarity that arose from doing that that felt profound. It was like a clarity and a relaxation like a relaxed ease and a depth of experience.
So, I was trying to I use this in such a way as to help, especially that year 2022, really take some time to reclaim or remember in terms of like putting back all of the, the members of my body, right?
Like, you know, not really my arms or legs, but to, to recollect and reconfigure Justin, who had done, you know, this really great work, attending to constant trauma, traumatic experiences, et cetera. That a whole host of different kinds of populations experienced within [00:39:00] the context of New York City Department of Correction. Around which probably, know, there was a negative impact on my health, right? I, I probably slept five and a half hours a night for five and a half years, right?
Things like this, constant responding to crisis, 24 or seven, if not necessarily having to go attend to crisis. I was in charge of most emergency response, literally all emergency response for staff who were injured, assaulted, et cetera.
And that happened because jails run 24/7, 24 7. And then, I was also responsible for the preservation and development of quality of spiritual care for all detainees. So this meant interfacing with community, faith groups but also city hall, city council, advocacy groups and all this kind of stuff. So there's a tremendous amount of pressure going on all the time.
So that's how I initially [00:40:00] connected to it. And then as my practice of Atiyoga really deepened, especially with respect to dark retreat, I became interested in some of these kinds of experiences as you know, potential breakthrough experiences,
Like, I guess what there can be benefit plant medicine to help cause a shift in,it could be a perceptual shift, it doesn't need to be massive necessarily, but even, even a slight perceptual shift and more or less resting into those kind of Rigpa state, this open awareness and understanding that this shift is a manifestation of the experience of mind, clarity of mind, luminosity of mind, et cetera. Not holding onto it, but treating it as a potentiality for experiencing mind and phenomena in a different way. And that anything that is arising in this moment is a [00:41:00] manifestation of my mind. A manifestation of the Rigpa state.
So, you know, this is what interests me in this kind of work. I don't use plant medicine on a regular basis. Iboga, though I have a lot of respect for only as a plant medicine, but then the spirit of Iboga just, we just seemed to have connected very well during that ceremony. And then during my experiences in microdosing it, I also felt a kind of connection that feels very innate and natural, but also very hard to explain intellectually.
Like, how do I, a western person who, you know, is very kind of well steeped in Vajrayana now connect to this, plant medicine that comes from Gabon that was initially probably discovered by, pygmies that you find in Gabon and the Congo and, and things like this. And so that part I can't explain but I am interested in this.
And then my friend Ryan, you know, was feeling into[00:42:00] what the spirit of Iboga, you know, the Bwiti kind of, you know, spiritual side of this seemed to feel about these two deity practices that we're going to be working with in the retreat. This form of trauma NMO that comes from Padampa Sangye tradition this form of den lamo that comes from, you know, the early Kagyu.
And he felt that the Iboga plant medicine spirit felt that there was an alignment. And I trust that. And so I figured, hey, you know, let's , let's do something about this. I don't know that there's, ever been anything done like this. I don't think there has. So let's give it a shot and see.
So we'll be having this retreat end of February, in Centra, Portugal. And if anybody is interested, you should check out Root Healing. And their website, there's stuff on this.
I think it's really fascinating, you know, it's hard to really be 100% clear about the extent to which plant medicine exists within the context of [00:43:00] Vajrayana Buddhism, but there are indicators, at least that I've seen in some various plant medicines working their way into different kinds of tantric practice, if at the very least, through some indigenous practices, you know, that, that you find in Nepal. But I, I have heard stories of, potentially using things like this.
And I've not seen any, any kind of, you textual background on this. So I want to be a little careful about, you know, advancing these things. But, the human relationship to nature is old, right? And plants also very, very old. And you know, in some cases the use of alcohol, for example, even in tantric ritual seems to serve a very similar purpose of introducing a slight shift in the consciousness of the practitioner
in the moment of that shift, right? There is potential meaningful experience to be had. It all goes wrong [00:44:00] moment one develops any kind of over-reliance on these things, right? And, and this is just true especially with respect to the Dzogchen and, Mahamudra view, right? The moment we become overly reliant on any particular thing and fall prey to habituation and that the kind of calcification or stagnation that arises as a result of that, then that edge gets lost, right?
And so I think what is really helpful is kind of like a gentle positioning of things as needed, as a way of keeping this kind of, fresh connection the possibility of fresh connection present.
Adrian: Yeah, I view it as another practice, you know. It's another skillful means. I think in terms of how often that should be employed, not only does that depend on the practitioner and where they are in their practice, I find it really varies wildly in terms of the medicine.
There's something about mushrooms or LSD that really is meant to be used certainly in a large dose, just not as frequently. You know, if you try doing mushrooms [00:45:00] or LSD two days in a row, your tolerance goes exponentially up. And that's nature's way of telling you, you're not meant to be doing that in that manner.
Lama Justin: Yeah.
Adrian: You know, whereas Ayahuasca or Soma is just kind of the opposite. You don't feel it. You might not feel it for several ceremonies, and I find actually working with that more regularly makes sense in a way that I never thought of before when I was working with different medicines.
And I think that something that I've really gained from working with this plant medicine from a dharmic perspective, which is, it's really deepened my insight, like lived experience into interdependence. You know, when you were talking about how do I reconcile this as a Vajrayana practitioner with this plant from, west Africa, I think part of it for me is even "yes and." As a modern person who like didn't grow up gardening, had no connection to plants, how do I just feel this deep connection with nature? With a plant now. Having a relationship with a plant, that's a kind of intimacy to life and the universe that this medicine's opened me up to.
Which again, it's, I mean, [00:46:00] I think of Dogen's phrase of enlightenment as intimacy with all things. It's not about the peak experience, it's about how it opens you and shifts your view in moment to moment experience.
Lama Justin: Yeah, I mean, you know, given my, my relationship to Dr. Nida and his role as somebody who's advancing the study of Tibetan medicine or Sowa-Rigpa and my own entry into studying Sowa-Rigpa, yeah, it's very illuminating to just look the huge range of impact that plants have on us.
Everything from cloves, nutmeg, you know, every kind of herb, right? And plants, and bone, and meat and fat and all of these things. The impact that they have on the humors in the body, the energies of the body, the way they can stabilize things, the way they can actually destabilize things when, not the right balance.
It does align itself very well I think with, Atioga, Dzogchen and Mahamudra, because both of those practices [00:47:00] really are about settling into an open harmony with everything, right? There's external appearance, internal appearance. This means the external world, the internal world. And this kind of magic inherent in both of those, right?
That plants have a directly effect on our body and the impact of the power of these plants, and I don't mean in terms of the intensity of an experience one might have with either a plant medicine any kind, be it chamomile for example, or peppermint, or something like this, or let alone Iboga or psilocybin.
There is this field of wisdom in being attuned to these things that I think that is innately human that may be the process of being redeveloped in our post-industrial, very disconnected lives from nature. Which I think is probably also necessary us to be able to come back into harmony with the environment and with the elements [00:48:00] and all these things. Because what we've created in the very disembodied period during the Industrial Revolution and then post-industrial revolution is a complete disassociation from our, to earth, plant matter, even mineral matter, you know, magical matter, right? Visionary matter and all this kind of stuff.
So, the interest in plant medicine, I think I tend to read this as a manifestation of a kind of a symptom pointing us back home, right? It's like put
Adrian: Yes.
Lama Justin: pointing us back towards, what we as humans really are, which is, our animals we are just animals.
And we think, and we think we're so much different or higher than, but we share the capacity to have the same deep level of attunement to the environment that deer have and that antelope have and that birds have and you know, these much more sensitive organisms like frogs and amphibians that tend to be the first order animals to be killed in a [00:49:00] buy-in environment that falls outta balance.
So I do think there's some of that going on as, well a result, of all of his interest.
Adrian: I do too. I think that's a big part of it. It makes it so almost, I can't ignore the signals. I can see things more clearly. Like when I spend, I'm spending a lot of time in a big city, which I enjoy very much. I just feel, oh no, I'm, I'm out of alignment with something, you know?
with nature and how that connects to my true nature.
Lama Justin: Yeah. I mean, you know, we're so much more sensitive than we give ourselves credit for, and it isn't until we get out of a space, you know, it's like I live in New York City, i, grew up in New York spent huge amounts of time away and more recently, you know, I was away for about half of November and I came back I was coming back from dropping my kids off at school, walking home, and I was just like, you know, very attuned to how odd I felt in that moment. Disconnected, right? The environment just felt, you know, overly harsh. And it was just a normal day a normal morning.
And[00:50:00] it was really, way for me to see, oh, you know, this is how out of balance we're living right now. And not just me, you know, eight to 10 million people in the New York City area, and then there's every other kind of city in urban area.
Humans are very resilient and adaptable, but you know, what we're seeing, globally is that we've, pushed the balance away. There is no more, everything is out of balance.
Lama Justin: And I think the thing that we all need to begin to prepare for, I think is, is, still probably decades of continued destabilization and things getting worse. And I think that's interesting, like, when I see a lot of people looking at their own spiritual development as, kind of the key motivator for dharma practice, for example, which is, you know, not necessarily bad, but I think that when we really wake up to how disastrous everything is, if we can include just returning back to some kind of basic harmonized state, with the environment, with how [00:51:00] everything has become. Right? So how can we, reestablish a sense of regulation?
Then I think we're practicing in a much more authentic and meaningful way, a way that will have sustained benefit. You know, I think, that maybe in 15 years we'll be able to look back to this time and see how, off the mark a lot of dharma practice has been we didn't really appreciate the disaster right in front of our eyes,
Adrian: Yeah. That's one thing I noticed again, I think with your teachings and how you're adapting Vajrayana is just speaking more directly to social justice, including the environmental crisis.
And I do think generally this is a positive thing we see of dharma coming to the West where people are maybe for cultural reasons, very willing to be outspoken. But yeah, it seems like this is an important trend that's happening in dharma. I'm curious within your own offerings, what that looks like, for example, in terms of talking about to address the climate crisis or these other challenges.
Lama Justin: Yeah. I mean, a lot of this is achieved through collaboration with other people, right? People who are activists or advocates within[00:52:00] the kind of area of specialty that they are. I think that there's a lot that still is worth exploring. For example, like, you know, none of us are really into child slave labor, right? All of us are into our iphones.
Adrian: Let's hope not.
Lama Justin: Yeah.
Adrian: Right.
Lama Justin: but, like, you know what I mean?
And so, what's interesting is like, for example, an exploration of, you know, how does Buddhist ethics tie into owning a lot of technology around which the rare earth metals in some cases, are produced through child slave like labor conditions or you know, this kind of like wholesale destruction of the environment for these things.
And I think there needs to be a deepening of an examination of these kinds of things and also the discomfort that might arise in relinquishing ourselves from some of these attachments. Like I don't think that we're necessarily gonna solve all these things just through [00:53:00] better technology. I think, curbing our appetite for a lot of what we have in our lives is probably going to be a key factor for the survival of the species.
Adrian: On that point though, I mean when you look out at most of the world and you know really where carbon emissions are coming from, yeah, the U.S. has a lot, but so much is driven by China and India. And how do you tell these countries that are developing, oh, you can't develop now that we've developed in the
West. And I just think for a Dharma practitioner, asking them to give up things is one thing, but people don't have that framework and then they're coming across capitalism, materialism, life's getting better... is that a realistic formula?
Lama Justin: Well, so I think best thing we can do is work to begin to model through our own behavior. Right? Like I think, you know, we go to the global sometimes too prematurely
I remember like in the eighties first hearing about tofu from like, you [00:54:00] know, a friend of my parents that came over and they were like, oh, we tried this thing called tofu.
Lama Justin: And, you know, I remember thinking like, that's a strange name. And I was probably like, you know, six or something, and now something that we find all over the place obviously. And non meat, food supplements are, are very common.
I, I think that people need to begin to look for themselves at their relationship to these things and can begin to model the change important for them through their own behavior, rather than, you know, the, policing or forcing of another group to change again, part of this kind of, you know, intensely Abrahamic view system.
So you know how to think differently about that too, right? I think is an important thing. And sometimes all we can do is what we can enact for ourselves, right? And this kind of goes a little bit back to Shantideva, right? Like, you [00:55:00] wanna walk around the world, he said you can cover the world with leather, or you can cover the soles of your own feet.
And some of this has to do with it means to cultivate wisdom. And no, it's not wise for first world countries to go tell developing nations what you can and cannot do. Right? This is inappropriate.
For example, with the, global environmental crisis, because it is global. Every single nation is feeling this now. And therefore every single nation will have to make a choice. At some point, everything is going to become so bad that there will be greater pressure for everybody to fall in line in some way. But, you know, the, but I don't think this is the kind of thing... the United States doesn't have the right I think, to take the high ground on this because we haven't been good models, you know? But on an individual basis, the best thing we can do is take responsibility for ourselves.
Adrian: So, one thing that I saw when I was doing some research for our conversation on one of your previous [00:56:00] podcasts, you talked about value of actually doing shorter meditation
sessions. And sometimes when we get really into meditation, and I think a lot of traditions emphasize this, I certainly got this instruction, and there's a lot of value in learning to be really still and quiet for long periods of time.
Um, but there's so much value in actually shorter practice sessions as well. Maybe that helps you to build a habit in the first place 'cause you procrastinate and don't do the longer practice to begin with.
Or, I just find again that talk of how to integrate it into more moment to moment daily life, actually, that that can be more helpful or for it certainly was for me.
And I was wondering if you could talk about that perspective for people and, and how to go about that.
Is it actually beneficial in many ways to practice more rounds maybe, but shorter sessions.
Lama Justin: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, so the ninth Karmapa, Wangchuk Dorje [00:57:00] wrote three very important Mahajudra texts. The shortest of which is called "Pointing out the Dharmakaya." And in this text he mentions, the importance of shorter meditation practice sessions for a few reasons. He was before Pavlov, but he was kind of talking out about trying to control a Pavlovian negative response with respect to practice.
So even if we just begin straight with Shamatha, the practice of Shamatha is really beautiful. And being said, most people, the first to 10 times they practice Shamatha, it's excruciating. Because they've never practiced meditation before, this is where they begin to really see like, you know, the tumultuousness of their mind, right?
And so if you ask someone to sit and, you know, they never sat before sit in Shamatha for an hour, many people, and I've had this experience, for example, introducing Shamatha to correction officers, they will say, that was a horrible [00:58:00] experience. I don't think this is right for me. I never want to do this again. Right?
And so you've already kind of like, you know, people up, on a bad footing. So from the very basic standpoint of, short sessions are digestible, right? You are creating the ground as you point out for people to build something, right? If it's unpleasant in the beginning and people would much rather be doing other things like watching tv, then they're not going to come back to meditation, right?
And so this is something that Wangchuk Dorje noticed, several centuries ago. So there's that aspect of things. But I think what's more interesting and important to me is poking holes in the belief that settling into the Rigpa state is necessarily a gradual affair, right?
Like, you know, we'll often treat, the development of open awareness practice as a slow, titrated, you know, slope where we're [00:59:00] moving, moving, moving. And, and that's not bad, right? It's definitely not bad. And, and it can be skillful for most people to approach things this way. But I think the thing is right, is that when we want to experience Rigpa, we can do this rather quickly. And it much more important for the practitioner of Atiyoga or Mahamudra to keep the possibility or the potentiality of settling into it now and now and now.
And so if you have, a five minute break between two meetings, rest into the bridge estate, right? And if you have a 10 minute break between two zoom calls, settle in there, right?
So for me, I usually pick up the kids from school in the afternoon. And if I have, a certain period of time between that and when I need to make tormas for protector practice, that's a good time to just sit down for a little bit and settle into the Rigpa state, right? Make the tormas, begin protector practice.
It also ameliorates [01:00:00] a division between formal practice and the rest of our lives, right? If we have formal practice sessions, which are the things that we take the most seriously in our lives, and then we have the whole rest of our lives, including sleep right? The vast majority of our lives are, not the subject of specific dharma practice.
So the more that we can, introduce Dharma practice into off the cushion everyday moments of life. Whether it's some kind of domestic or like I was doing when I worked on Rikers, right? Like, um, getting a call in the middle of the night, somebody has died, know, under any, you know, any kind of circumstances, need to respond to the scene. It's three 15 in the morning and get dressed, go downstairs, in my vehicle, drive to the scene, And use that experience of driving and resting into the nature of mind.
Showing up and [01:01:00] walking through the halls of a hospital, resting into the nature of mind, right? Speaking family, members of the deceased, and resting into the nature of mind. Right. Constantly trying to bring this, right. So there's the integration pieces you bring up, right? But there's also the quote unquote demy demystification of the meditative process, right? Because really, like all we're trying to do is to blend this in, integrate this experience into the rest of our lives, no matter if it's super intense.
Like my work was to less intense as life is now. But always trying to bring this to that, right? So I think, I think that this is a little bit more helpful because people build walls like, you know, like little zoom boxes of, of what practice should be like on a daily basis. I think this kind of approach offers us the opportunity to dispense with that and [01:02:00] make everything one big box. Through which there's a lot of movement, a lot of energy flowing, but all of it is something that we can begin to open up to practicing with
Adrian: sort of feeling of, even hierarchy or division between, real practice when I'm formally sitting verse not, I definitely experienced that with retreat, especially when I was in trivada of like, there's this subtle, okay, I'm really practicing when I'm on retreat.
Even though you're told, oh, daily life, it's all for practice. They're these, they're these subtle beliefs that take hold. 'cause different things can be assigned different um, status, and we pick up on that and
Lama Justin: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Oh,
Adrian: even, I've just stopped using a timer,
you know, and I wouldn't, I, I'd encourage people who are new to use the timer a lot, but a lot times I don't now because I just, I want it to just be completely seamless, you know? .
Lama Justin: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:00] I mean, you know?
I think, you know, and remember like at some point we're gonna die. Right? And, and, you know, within the context of Adrian in particular a lot of practice and there are a lot of practices that are directed towards that moment itself, right? And the one, the other thing about death is we don't, we will never generally know when it's happening. And I know this because I used to work as a hospice chaplain, and so I've been with hundreds of people who have died and, you know, you can get an inkling, okay, it's probably likely that patient X or patient, patient y will die this week. Right? But day? You would not believe necessarily how long the active dying phase can go.
It can last, you know, in some cases, days, or like, you know, weeks of just being kind of absolutely, utterly amazed at how this person is still alive, right? And they're not being kept alive by any kind of extraordinary means. So remembering that too, right?
That that, that, that is a part of [01:04:00] our practice and will become a moment of our practice, as will the post death state as well, right? And so the more of an integrated experience we can have now, the more of a likelihood there is that we'll be able to experience that kind of clarity at those moments, you know, as well, right? If we, if everything is just, you know, if practice is, you know, predicated on Convenience, you know, convenient blocks of time. Right. Death is never convenient. And no Bardo experience is probably, you know, we could also say never convenient either. Right? So, so at some point the practitioner needs to begin to dispense with, with you know, the, the, like, you know, you kind of alluded to this, the fallacy created by designated time periods.
Adrian: Yeah.
Lama Justin: Yeah.
Adrian: Thank you. very well said. Well, Justin, I'm, want to thank you so much for, for making the time to speak with me, [01:05:00] and I want to give you an opportunity as well to let people know where they can find you and about any upcoming offerings you have.
Lama Justin: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, Adrian, for having me. It's been great seeing again and, and talking with you and really great checking out Thailand from a distance. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll be leading this retreat on Paloma and through Root Healing in Centra Portugal, uh, at the end of February, 2024. And then most of what I do these days you can find on yoti yoga.com, which is the website for this Dharma organization. I've, co-created with Dr. Nida Chaat song, focusing primarily on Atiyoga yoga. And we, you know, we're in the process of fundraising to build a dark retreat center in the United States, probably in New York State or Western Massachusetts. And so yeah, go to YangtiYoga.Com. You know, I'm happy to, to, you know, [01:06:00] connect with people who are interested in that work or, or, you know, any of the other things I do.
Adrian: Thank you so much Justin. Really appreciate your time.
Lama Justin: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Take good care of yourself. Yeah, be well. I'll see you soon,
Adrian: Okay, great.
Lama Justin: Alright.