Integrating the Insight Tradition & Plant Medicine
Episode Summary:
Episode 3 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Janeth Jaramillo from Pachanoi Retreats. This episode discusses the integration of indigenous medicinal practices with plants such as Ayahuasca and Huachuma, and meditation in the Insight Tradition. The conversation begins with Janeth’s personal journey into plant medicine and meditation and her experience with different ceremonies, retreats, and sacred medicines like San Pedro cactus, psilocybin mushrooms, DMT, and Kambo. Some topics discussed include: the use of plant medicine for healing, cultural differences in the practice of traditional wisdom, how plant medicine can complement a non-dual contemplative practice, and ethical considerations that one must observe in the use of plant medicine. The discussion also delves into ethical considerations, power dynamics, and potential abuse within spiritual communities, alongside the importance of respect for indigenous knowledge and traditions.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introduction and Janeth’s Background
09:39 The Role of Emotions in Awakening
29:35 The Importance of Respect and Ethics in Plant Medicine
39:56 The Impact of Set and Setting on Psychedelic Experiences
53:52 The Power Dynamics and Shadow Aspects in Psychedelic Experiences
58:02 Tips for a Safe Journey in Plant Medicine
01:00:01 Introducing Pachanoi Earth Medicine Retreat
Guest Bio:
Janeth is an Ecuadorian medicine woman, plant medicine facilitator, and mindfulness practitioner. She has extensive knowledge of plant medicine and has worked closely with indigenous Shipibo people from Peru for over a decade. Her journey with plant medicine began with an Ayahuasca ceremony in Peru in 2010 and she’s been organizing and facilitating retreats since 2014. Janeth continues to deepen her understanding through countless plant medicine ceremonies not only with Ayahuasca but with other Sacred Medicines such as San Pedro cactus, psilocybin mushrooms, DTM and kambo.
Janeth is also a passionate Buddhist practitioner, she has been part of several silent, multi-day meditation retreats, including a 3-month silent meditation retreat at IMS in Massachusetts and a 2-month retreat in Yangon-Myanmar. She is a certified Mindfulness Teacher and studied under the direction of the well-known teachers Jack Konrfield and Tara Brach.
Full Transcript:
Adrian: Hello, I'm Adrian Baker and this is Redesigning the Dharma. Today I'm speaking with Janeth Jaramillo. Janeth is an Ecuadorian medicine woman, retreat manager, plant medicine facilitator, and mindfulness practitioner. She has extensive knowledge of plant medicine and has worked closely with indigenous Shipibo people from Peru for over a decade.
After studying marketing and business management for five years in Ecuador and New York City, Janeth felt the call to shift her career direction. She studied permaculture at Hancock Permaculture Center in NYC before traveling to Peru in 2010. It was during that time that she first encountered ayahuasca, the medicine that changed her life.
For three years, Janeth lived and worked at a well known ayahuasca healing center in [00:01:00] Iquitos, Peru. During that time, Janeth participated in many ayahuasca ceremonies, learning about medicinal plants from the Amazon region and doing traditional plant dietas.
Since 2014, Janeth has organized and facilitated ayahuasca retreats in Peru, supporting the healing of hundreds of people.
Janeth helped to establish the organizations Sacred Spirit Journeys and Lotus Vine Journeys and has been the manager, retreat coordinator, and facilitator of this organization for seven years.
Janeth has continued to deepen her understanding through countless plant medicine ceremonies not only with ayahuasca, but with other sacred medicines having extensive experience with San Pedro cactus, psilocybin mushrooms, DMT, and Kambo.
Her main lineage is Shipibo, but she has also sat in ceremony with Mestizo people from Peru, and Yawanawá people from Brazil.
Janeth is a passionate Buddhist practitioner. She has been part of several silent, multi-day meditation retreats, including a three month silent [00:02:00] meditation retreat at IMS in Massachusetts and a two month retreat in Yangon, Myanmar.
She is a certified mindfulness teacher and has studied under the direction of the well known teachers Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach.
Janeth is also passionate about yoga, nutrition, and healthy lifestyles. She has been practicing yoga since 2009 and is a 200 hour certified yoga teacher. She loves nature, permaculture, environmental, and social oriented projects.
And here's my conversation with Janeth.
First of all, thank you so much for speaking with me and for being willing to do it again. We tried it the first time and had some technical difficulties, so I'm glad we're willing to give it another shot.
But I'm glad that we did in some ways, Janethh because it gave me a chance to reflect more on our conversation and we chatted a bit in the interim and I was thinking about, you know, I certainly want to go back into some of the same topics and questions, but also like what the frame is, what the themes were. and [00:03:00] it was helpful 'cause I realized on this show something that I'm really interested in and I've been interested in for years, I was talking about this on my old podcast, Hacking the Self, is the tension between the traditional and modern. And that's what interests me about Buddhism as well, is when we're trying to translate this sort of ancient wisdom into modern code, to use the phrase of one of my Dharma teachers, um, how to do that.
And it's natural that things evolve. And then there's always the tension there. There are those forces that want to preserve the traditional. And there are good sometimes reasons for that. And then there's also a shadow side to everything. Or certain things that that perspective isn't seeing. And then there's the natural desire to adapt because things have to adapt because things change.
But then there's the perspective there and the shadow there and what those people aren't seeing. And I realized that is what interests me about Dharma and also plant medicine and the way those two intersect. So I'd love [00:04:00] to maybe offer that as a frame. If that's interesting to you for our conversation.
Janeth: Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think a lot about those Goenka retreats. They stick exactly in the same format . And then you have different types of retreats that adapt and add yoga and add like more talking...
Adrian: Right.
Janeth: And both of them has a, have value. I have done a lot of Goenka and I also have done not traditional retreat.
Adrian: So let's talk about that 'cause I think Theravada's a wonderful example like that. Goenka is sort of that more to that end of the spectrum of the traditional, which like, we've got the blueprint and we're gonna just repeat the blueprint and there's a good reason for it in some ways. You know what you're getting, there's a clear standard.
And it's very different from what you see for example, in Theravada in a lot of places in the US where they're adapting more. Like Spirit Rock. But even Spirit rock, if you compare it to IMS, you would know more than me, I've just practiced at Spirit Rock. But people would always say, even there, there's the tension.
[00:05:00] Like IMS tends to be more traditional, more Mahasi Sayadaw and Spirit Rock is stereotypically California. It's more sort of like, playing and experimenting and open.
So maybe even just starting, you know, with your background in Theravada. What have you noticed about that tension?
Janeth: Well, actually I was in Burma a few years ago and I was practicing at Paṇḍitārāma, which was the center of Sayadaw U Pandita
Adrian: Yeah,
Janeth: and that was strict. You know, wake up three in the morning, sleeping,
Adrian: Yeah.
Janeth: on the floor pretty much. And there is a value in that. There is a value on holding that tradition of going to the land and in and practicing in the way was practiced for thousands of years.
There is a value for me in connecting to the dharma through the lenses of monastic life. However, is not for everybody.
So there is some that feel [00:06:00] attracted to that. But many people that haven't been in contact with meditation and is their first retreat, they need something softer.
They need dharma talks that are relatable. They need also to feel pamper and care, and it's a good way to start. I feel like, something an an, an anecdote from my time at Paṇḍitārāma was That I start little chitchatting with some of the girls at the end of the retreat. I know, shouldn't have done that
Adrian: Yeah, I know where it's going already.
Janeth: I know. But yeah. But there was this woman that came out and she was crying and she was practicing. We were all practicing from three in the morning all the way to nine thirty, full on, know?
And she was crying because the teacher told her that she should practice harder. So I saw this woman completely discouraged [00:07:00] and I knew she was practicing hard and this... practice harder, be strong... like this tough, really masculine energy because it's very masculine, Theravada...
Adrian: Very masculine.
Janeth: and I could see this poor woman that was trying to do her best, completely destroyed.
And I wonder, is that compassionate? Does that help? Is that gonna, is outward living for this woman or is she gonna just drop it all?
and I think like, Asian people are more used to this type of ways of practicing the dharma because it's from their lineage, it's from their culture.
But if you do that to Western people, we are just gonna break down, you know, we are not used to having teachers that are strong. We are not used to having these masculine energies. So the dharma has to adapt also to, and it's always been adapting to the and the people that needs to reach.
I am Latin. I'm starting to teach, uh, in Spanish. [00:08:00] So when I talk, how I talk, it has a different flavor. It talks a lot about more community, family, emotions because, uh, Latin, like a lot of emotions,
Adrian: Yeah.
Janeth: So I feel there is a lot of value in, both, and depends on the person. I would love to go back to train in Asia, to practice in Asia because it's my character and I need it. I need that strict, uh, Hmm. sometimes. However, it is not for everybody.
Adrian: Right. And there's something that you said there that really resonated about being Latin and from that culture, the way that is gonna get expressed through you. And it's, I was actually just talking about this recently with, um, with one of people who helped me on my social media team.
And I was trying to say one thing I want to convey, I think on this platform is really just different views of awakening.
One thing I noticed is that, you're gonna get a [00:09:00] view of awakening when you're within a tradition of your teacher. Like what it looks like to be an awakened person with Sayadaw U Pandita is a different vibe than Mahindra-ji, right? Even within T heravada. And Suzuki Roshi has sort of a softness to him, even though he's intense as a zen master compared to some other Zen teachers, you know, and then one tradition different from another.
And so, one thing I've kind of noticed is that as a westerner or you're from somewhere else, and then you practice this tradition from another culture and you assume, oh, like that's, that's what it means to look like if you're awake or it means to look like a Buddha, but actually even the Buddha as an archetype. Like that's just one vision of what it looks like to be awakened.
And something that I contemplate as someone who's lived in Thailand for a long time is, I definitely think there's, a lot of truth to that that's universal. Like part of training in dharma is definitely we're training in non-reactivity. That's sort of a common basis, I feel [00:10:00] right, for all dharma.
But the part that we assume emotions aren't supposed to be expressed. Is actually something that's culturally relative. And I don't think it's universal to dharma or it just happened to take form that way because it started in Asia.
But we get the impression we're not supposed to express our emotions, which is something in Thailand, and I think there's a distinction between being non-reactive and actually there's a place for anger. , There's a place for anger as energy moving through the body if you're aware of what you're doing and you're really not directing it at someone in particular, or maybe your teacher is doing it in a skillful way.
So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that, but I really like that you said that because I think that's something that has to happen as the dharma opens up, is we need to relax a little bit around what . Awakening looks like including around the expression [00:11:00] of emotions.
Janeth: Absolutely. This make me think how can we define awakening? Is the mind free of greed, hatred, and delusion? Sometimes when not expressing our emotions, perhaps we are just pressing them. Perhaps everything is bottled because we come from cultures where expression is seen as less and or perhaps it's not allowed.
However, when you were saying about anger, the important thing is, is this skillful? Is the way that I'm relating to this emotion going to be skillful? Is it gonna lead, to freedom. Is it gonna lead to more suffering? Is it gonna lead to less suffering?
And sometimes when you need to stop somebody, you perhaps need to use force. And that could come from deep compassion as well.
So I think about the dharma and goal of enlightenment as, "how can I be [00:12:00] free of emotions that cause me suffering?" Mental attitudes or mental constrictions that cause more suffering? Am I more compassionate? Is my practice leading to more compassion? Is my practice leading to more care? Is my practice leading to joy? Am I developing the brahmaviharas when I'm practicing? Am I a caring person? And for me, that is the way I measure, I measure my development in this practice.
And a Latin person, emotion is more expressed. That is my culture. I want to reach people from my culture, I will have to be more expressive. If I go to try to reach people from let's say, Germany, perhaps I would have to act in a different way.
Adrian: For sure, you would. I think there's that sort of code switching and cultural fluency that you have to take on, you know, if you're teaching to people from different cultures.
Um, there's one thing you said about the importance [00:13:00] of joy in your practice and I'm curious as someone who is Latin, how you found that being honest in the Theravada tradition?
Because I think the rap sometimes some people feel, I felt this and I know other people do as well. There's a lot of things I like about Theravada it feels that joy doesn't get centered as much
Janeth: Yeah.
Adrian: in terms of how it's expressed. Like, we can talk about cultivating joy, but it's really in that early teachings, it's about equanimity. It's about transcendence. Yes, there's a lot of loving kindness.
But for example, I think one thing that draws people to Vajrayana is a lot of Tibetans are very joyful. You know, and there's this emphasis on bodhichitta. And I'm just curious how that was for you in Theravada or how it is or, or how you translate that as someone who is from a culture that's more expressive and personally, joy is more important to you.
Janeth: Absolutely. Well, the joy of a mind that is clear,. The joy of a mind that is not [00:14:00] diluted, that is not causing itself more tangles. There is something about that. And there's something about being in the moment, present, fully in your body, which is a lot that I do, embodied practices.
This connection to being alive, this connection to being fully here, that is joyful for me. The joy of being present. The joy of being in the body. The joy of not being entangled and also laughing about your entanglements of having, for me, it's a practice of patience and it's a practice of self-love. And me, self-love also comes with a good laugh of my mistakes, of my humanity.
So I try to take it lightly and I just notice the more I see my mind and the more I see like the craziness of my mind, and I take it just like with a grain of salt, I can start again. I can come back to the present. And there is, juiciness in that.
Adrian: That's good.
Janeth: [00:15:00] Even though Theravada is very dry, I actually had a good time. I laugh a lot about myself. You know, I could see all my craziness. I had a great fun
Adrian: Up until that confession that Theravada's very dry, you did a beautiful job of articulating the Theravada position. As soon as you said that, I was like, "oh, I'm in the Dharma Hall. That's exactly what they would say at Spirit Rock."
But it's, healthy to acknowledge both. Everything that you said is really beautiful and true. And it is dry. You know, I, I mean that's the flavor of it. And I also think that's why it's very appealing. I think that is why Theravada was able to be refashioned. And it's interesting, we talk about this as the original teachings of the Buddha, but I don't know if you're familiar with "The Birth of Insight," that book by Eric Braun?
Janeth: No.
Adrian: He's, an interesting scholar, Buddhist study scholar, and what he did was he studied the impact of colonialism on Burma. And basically what he found was, in Burma, and this happened in Thailand and [00:16:00] all of Southeast Asia, but especially in Burma, where they were directly under the control the British in the way that Thailand felt the influence, but they weren't directly under colonial control. They refashioned Theravada as rational and modern and scientific as a way to defend it against colonialism. So actually the way we have that view of Theravada is itself a fairly recent iteration. Yeah, Theravada actually had a lot of esoteric, superstitious, more black magic. It had those elements to it.
There's a book called Esoteric Thervada by Kate Crosby that goes into this. So it's interesting. Even that interpretation we have of Theravada, it's a relatively modern, reinterpretation of it.
Janeth: And that shows
Adrian: but I think
Janeth: how the Dharma changes.
Adrian: Yeah, exactly. And that's why it's effective-- 'cause it can adapt in response.
But I do think too, that is why it's effective with a lot of westerners. A lot of westerners, you know, they don't wanna see something that's overtly religious, like Vajrayana and just [00:17:00] modern people in general. They, want something that's rational, scientific, great
Janeth: honestly, that's why I really like Theravada. And
Adrian: Yeah.
Janeth: for me, it's easy to introduce it to Spanish speaking people without, pushing into deities, without pushing into a tradition that could be far away from what Latin people are used to, which is a Catholic tradition. So when talking
Adrian: Right
Janeth: about mindfulness being present, that can, can be easier to transmit than, for example, Vajrayana.
Adrian: Yes. And I think you get Vajrayana teachers like Minyak Rinpoche, who's really distilling his teachings in this way that people can enjoy in a more secular way. You know, he is got the Joy of Living program. It's really beautiful.
But, you know, maybe even the simple act of seeing an overtly religious figure, like a Rinpoche standing up in an elevated seat, that alone, might be too much for some people and some of the pomp and circumstance around that and that feeling of a guru. So... I, I do think, [00:18:00] you know, I think that's one wonderful thing about Theravada.
And that makes me want to ask you just sort of, you know, as we're thinking about medicine and some of these similar questions for medicine, but let me start by asking you like, what's the connection for you between Dharma and ayahuasca, and take us back into your journey and sort of how that started for you, how you connected those two practices?
Janeth: Okay. I think that the common point is relief of suffering. And that's for me the key of both practices. Of course they give you a lot of insight if you have any...
I work with different plant medicines, by the way. Ayahuasca was my primary teacher for many years, but now I'm working with wachuma, with San Pedro cactus and mescaline containing cactus from Peru and Ecuador. Very powerful and beautiful. I also work with psilocybin mushrooms, DMT...
Well, well, coming back to ayahuasca.
Adrian: Feel free to talk about all three [00:19:00] by the way. For sure.
Janeth: came to Peru 10 years ago and 14 years ago and I start living in a nice ayahuasca healing center. I didn't come for ayahuasca, I came for another reasons. But life happened and it was just karma.
And I start living in the most famous ayahuasca healing center probably in the world, which is called The Temple of The Way of Light. And I lived there for three years.
during these three years, I had many ayahuasca ceremonies, my own healing. But I also witnessed the healing of so many people. From physical illness, emotional illness, people that will come with full on traumas, and they were able to release these traumas through plant medicine.
It works at a physical level. A lot of purging, a lot of moving, a lot of shaking, a lot of crying... energetic level... an emotional level.
So many people would say[00:20:00] that one ceremony is like 10 years of therapy because the medicine works such a somatic level that whatever is the stored in the body comes out.
However, and this is something with ayahuasca, more with ayahuasca, for what I realize... It's that can get confusing if you don't have a clear goal, let's say, why am I doing this? If there is not a clear road of life, these medicines are incredible. are deeply healing of body and mind and spirit. And it's important to have an ethical framework. It's important to, understand your mind. after three years of living in this place, I realized I, after three years, like constantly drinking medicine and going from healing this to healing that, to healing that without having much, uh, ground for landing on my healing or much [00:21:00] integration, I went to a 10 days vipassana retreat And oh my God, my mind was causing more confusion. And because ayahuasca is very visionary and opens you to all your senses, your heart, and you have these visions. My mind was creating tons of stories and it was not actually useful.
So, and I saw that with all the people that were there as well. And I realized that, uh, having practice while using this medicine is very valuable because it gives you a framework. What is happening? What am I attaching to? Am I attaching to these stories? Do I have aversion?
It gives you also a goal. Am my more compassionate? Am I more awake? There is so many people that are very confused in the plant medicine path. There is also not ethics. There is not clear ethics.
Especially back in the day when I went to Peru and it it was relatively new for westerns 14 years [00:22:00] ago and not as many retreats. Iquitos was the wild, wild west. And people will come and just try to take theseh these medicines without much respect to the indigenous people. It will be like some novelty drug as well.
And, um, is such a value on having a practice and a purpose on doing these medicines and having a way of relating to the sacred through the lenses of the dharma.
Adrian: I love that and I wanna bookmark your comments on ethics and the issues around that 'cause I wanna Circle back to that. I feel that's an important conversation.
I feel this is a great connection between dharma and medicine which you really started to articulate.
And what comes up for me is the first of the noble eightfold path, which is important of all of Dharma, which is right view. And feel that the view that you bring to ayahuasca, whether you're a Dharma [00:23:00] practitioner or not, the view is going to influence that experience. Both the experience itself, but how you approach it, how you integrate it, all of that.
And for me, just a basic starting point. And these are a lot of metaphors that are popular in Zen and Dzogchen and Mahamudra, but just thinking of the mind like a mirror and just recognizing that whatever comes up is all just part of the mirror.
I do think there's something specific about ayahuasca. We see the way people get swept away. You hear this, "Oh, I'm gonna build a shrine. Or I'm gonna start a business. I'm gonna leave my partner." That can happen after psychedelics but there's something about ayahuasca where we really hear these stories a lot. And I think it's the shadow side of something that's very effective about ayahuasca, which is, it's very powerful of clearing the karmic knots from the channels.
You know, in my experience, it's... and a friend who facilitates helped me to understand [00:24:00] this. It's the beta-carbolines that really open those channels, and it's the intelligence of chacruna or whatever DMT source, like acacia, that's, that's helping to flow through and clear it.
But then what comes up in the mirror are all our karmic visions. Our fantasies, our fears. And then if we don't have the view and a practice. , we jump out and we grasp after those. Which by the way, is just like normal life. It's just that the medicine amplifies it. And so, the appearances in the mirror seem a lot more vivid but when people don't have that view, they get completely swept away.
I've experienced that. I remember you said you experienced that.
Janeth: Everybody has, yeah.
Adrian: Everyone goes through that.
Do you know the, this quote, there's a famous ayahuasca, he's a shaman, I think from somewhere in, in South America. He said, "I drank ayahuasca once and thought I knew everything. I drank it 20 times and thought I knew some things. I drank it a hundred times and realize I know nothing." and I
just,
I love that. You know, it's just the more you do it, [00:25:00] the more you just realize it's...
You know, you can relate to it through a psychotherapeutic lens. There are these different lenses we can use, which is true, but I think there's something really helpful about recognizing this is just the play of consciousness you can just take it for that.
Janeth: That is how I like to see it. Because you could have these gigantic visions. How do you know it is delusion? How do you know if you're purging out your own delusion? Your grandiose sense?
People get confused. We all get confused. Is this the message of the medicine? What does this mean? But when you see it through the lenses of, "this is just consciousness," "this is arising from my mind." It has a value on it.
It has value of detachment and it could help you relate to your own practice in a skillful way. Like I feel ayahuasca supports the practice and the practice supports ayahuasca.
If you take the ceremony as a practice and can be present with everything that is going on, then your [00:26:00] daily practice will become stronger.
Adrian: Yeah, I like that. What is your advice for people for helping to not get swept away by that? Do you have some best practices?
Like, my friends have sort of asked me this. I got some big vision to do this. It's something in the romantic life, like pursuing a new partner, leaving a partner, a business decision. What have you learned aside from wait, give it a few weeks...
Janeth: I was gonna say that.
Adrian: that's the most important one we should acknowledge.
Is there anything you've learned about how to discern the difference? And maybe you can even elaborate on the wait. How long do you wait? How do you kind of discern these things?
Janeth: Well, definitely don't do it after the ceremony. Don't make giant big decisions after a ceremony. And just wait for a few weeks and understand what is your body telling you.
I always come back to embodiment because the body has wisdom and the mind gets[00:27:00] confused, but the body has a deeper wisdom. So how does this decision feel in your body? How does this decision feel in your heart? Do you feel openness? Do you feel closed-ness.
And using the body as a sense of reference for information is, uh, something that I like to do. Also, is this going to be supporting for benefit of all beings? Whatever you gonna do is gonna benefit more than you? What is the higher, uh, vision of this change? It's a good thing to ask as well.
Adrian: Yeah, coming back to right intention.
Janeth: Yeah, bodhicitta!
Adrian: Absolutely. So you worked for Spring Washam, you know, for many years who ran Lotus Fine Journeys, which is where I did my first ayahuasca ceremonies and I would definitely can recommend it to people who are interested in this intersection between Dharma [00:28:00] and Ayahuasca.
One thing it has me thinking about is, again, back to the beginning of the conversation, how Dharma evolves and how medicine evolves. And one thing that Spring did is she's really wedding the two traditions together. So she trained in the Insight tradition and then she did really the more traditional Shipibo training. Right? And she connected those two together.
And one thing that's also interesting now that I see, and I've worked with a facilitator who's, one, he's, he just positions himself as a facilitator and not a shaman. So perhaps we could talk about that. That's a difference right there.
And people are adapting it sort of in different ways. Like, inviting people to really just view it a dharmic lens rather than even some of the other traditional parts that go along with the Shipibo worldview or other worldviews, that traditionally can go along with the shaman.
And I think part of it, my sense is, is the same thing back to our conversation around the [00:29:00] Insight tradition. Which is, in order to adapt some modern people really resonate with the traditional, but some people are like, I can't, I can't quite access it that way.
And I'm curious how you feel about that? Like yeah, like how to balance that tradition with respect for traditional communities while also acknowledging that as Ayahuasca goes global, just like the dharma, to what extent is it inevitable that that is going to adapt as well? I'm curious your feelings for you and what, what comes up around that?
Janeth: I love what you said, respect. Because, one, and the main, base that we have to have when engaging with these practices, with these medicines, is to know that these medicines have been guarded for thousands of years by indigenous people. So this medicine, I am Ecuadorian and
ayahuasca, wachuma, [00:30:00] all are from my country, but I'm not a hundred percent indigenous, I am mestizo. So this medicine, even though I'm Ecuadorian, that is not my medicine. I am not indigenous that, I don't belong to indigenous group.
So, knowing and respecting our place in this... in the caring of this medicine, is very important. And honoring the custodians of the medicine is very important. Honoring the tradition. Naming the tradition. Acknowledging that these medicines come from indigenous people.
'Cause there is a ' big, um, Hmm. And painful, I, I could call it mistake of coming from the west taking these medicines, and strip them away from the real meaning.
Adrian: Mm-Hmm.
Janeth: So, and we have done that with yoga, and it is happening a lot with plant medicine. So my first ground to talk about is this respect for, and acknowledgement [00:31:00] for where this medicine comes.
And the indigenous world is different from the mother world. If you go to the jungle and I live in the jungle, people will use a ayahuasca for when the snake bites them to clean the stomach. They will have other uses for it.
When western people come, they will use the medicine for clearing from drug abuse, from clearing from alcoholism. So it is a different worlds and different uses for the medicine.
Plant medicine is calling us and it's been passed through thousands of years, and in these thousands of years, perhaps the use of planned medicine, the use of ayahuasca or the wachuma didn't change as much, but now it's changing because it encounters other people.
And the people that it encounters come with their different needs. Come with different, issues to heal that were not part of the [00:32:00] traditional or the indigenous problems back in the day.
I that having a lot of respect for the clinician is important, but these medicines are coming to consciousness and are being known because they serve us. They help us.
They can do so much goodness when are done with care, not for everybody. they are taken wisdom, it can clear so much from the body, it can serve us.
And right now humanity needs all avenues for healing. All avenues for healing the mind, all avenues for healing trauma. And I believe that done with respect, done with integrity, done with care, the medicines are fantastic way to support our wellbeing. I think right now we are in need to awaken.
Awaken our hearts. Awaken our connection to one another. Awaken our [00:33:00] relationship with the environment. And plant medicine in the traditional setting, in the jungles, in the forest... It's just so beautiful.
Adrian: Mm-Hmm. Yeah.
Janeth: It acts as this remembering: this remembering of our tribal being.
It calls us in a language that is beyond mental. This sensory experience of being in nature. Being sang by an indigenous person. There's so much value in working with plant medicine in the indigenous traditional way. And there's also a different language as well.
There is barriers and it's important to have somebody that can translate not only the words, but can translate the different worlds a apart.
That is the indigenous world and traditional world with the western world.
Adrian: Yeah, that's well said.
Do you see anyone else who's working with Dharma and Ayahuasca or [00:34:00] just Dharma and other medicines in an interesting way, aside from Spring? And I'd love to hear about your approach as well, just how you meld those two.
Janeth: Well, there is an organization called Paititi and they work also with Dharma. I think they do Tibetan, Tibetan Buddhism, and they are here in Peru. But there is plenty...
Adrian: How do you spell
Janeth: many people are... Paititi. P-A-I-T-I-T-I.
Adrian: Okay.
Janeth: Paititi. Mm-Hmm.
Adrian: Interesting.
Janeth: I actually was there. That was the first place I went I came to Peru.
Adrian: And they do Vajrayana with ayahuasca?
Janeth: Ayahuasca. Uh-huh.
Adrian: That's interesting,
Janeth: Yeah, there is many people that are interested in these medicines. Because it helps you. It can help the practice, it can help understanding consciousness as well besides healing.
Adrian: Yeah, it's becoming more popular. I've got, I, I know someone who's a, a great Lama, American teacher who's a Lama, and he is starting to work with [00:35:00] Iboga and he's offering a retreat on Vajrayana with Iboga. So there's, lots of
interesting examples of this happening more and more and I'm just always curious how people are doing it.
Yeah, so what's it look like for you with your retreats and it-- talk about what wachuma, 'cause it sounds like that's what you're doing now. So how do you really integrate Dharma and plant medicine on the retreats you offer?
Janeth: So yeah, I've been working with wachuma, which is this cactus, actually the oldest of entheogenics being used by humans. There has been archeological evidence of wachuma being used, 8,200 years ago, which is
Adrian: Really?
Janeth: a long time. Yeah, I know. I was researching.
8,000. So imagine this sacrament, this medicine being used for so long. There is something about that. And
Adrian: Definitely
Janeth: being passed generation through generation until now. So this cactus contains mescalin. And the name wachuma in Quechua means "to cut the head." And that is so interesting because when [00:36:00] you cut the head, what do you take?
Adrian: right.
Janeth: The rest of the body is just feeling. And it does that, wachuma. I love it because it, um, it brings this embodied element to the experience and it is a ceremony that lasts 12 hours.
It's gentle, but so deep. It's kind of like a mix of mushrooms and MDMA but lasting long, long, long and you don't realize, but it's very soft, however, it's so profound for opening the heart and, uh, supporting, especially emotional healing.
People here in Peru, they said that ayahuasca clears the body, cleans. wachuma heals. It brings this component of, um, being in the body.
When I do ceremonies, it's three, three ceremonies when in the daytime, one hike and, um, night ceremony. but you are fully present. You can hike, [00:37:00] you can be there, but at the same time, you're so aware of how your body feels. How your emotions go, and it opens, opens the door of emotions so people can relate to their loved ones in different ways. They can relate to themselves in different ways. It's a beautiful, beautiful medicine. And because
Adrian: Wow.
Janeth: it's... Yeah, it's so powerful. I, I've been working with Ayahuasca for 14 years and I've been working with wachuma for a few years, um, on and off, and now I, I'm even doing microdosing the past two weeks and I'm just fascinated by this plant. It's gentle
Adrian: Cool.
Janeth: and it's grounded. It's a wonderful plant.
Adrian: I've had limited but very positive experiences with cactus. So I did three peyote ceremonies, and then the other was, I can't remember if it was wachuma or Torch. Right. Isn't Peruvian Torch a little different than [00:38:00] wachuma?
Janeth: It's the same.
Adrian: Okay, then I have done
I did wachuma once and, and peyote three times and had very positive experiences with both.
I would say there is a distinction between the two. I definitely experienced wachuma as more masculine and stronger and peyote was more gentle. But both of them, there was a similarity in that it feels like with DMT and psilocybin, you know, there's a lot going on in the visual field
Janeth: Mm-Hmm.
Adrian: that can have a lot of beauty to it as part of the, the mystical experience inviting you into a state of awe.
But it can also, that's where a lot of attention goes, right?
Janeth: Yeah, it could be distracting.
Adrian: And it can be distracting and you can get caught up in a lot of things that we talked about earlier, that people get caught up with ayahuasca. And I found one wonderful thing about wachuma and peyote was that it was extremely gentle and there wasn't all that going on, so I did have time.
It was just more embodied and [00:39:00] mellow, like even when it was strong, it didn't feel overwhelming, even when it was really strong and we took a very high dose. Yeah. So I
liked that about it. There was grounding.
Janeth: I love that about it. You can handle it. It's a medicine that could be so strong but can be seen. And you have a lot of for integrating during the same, experience. I feel like ayahuasca with a lot of respect and love for the medicine can be confusing. And can be overwhelming.
Especially Shipibo work, it's full on. Shipibo work is like Theravada
Adrian: Right.
Janeth: strong, strong and dark in the sense that it heals a lot of the darkness and shadow work. With wachuma, you can heal that, but true embodied presence and true, like heart opening. Joy, acceptance, love, care, compassion.
Adrian: See, this brings up something interesting though, and I think it connects to our conversation [00:40:00] from a few minutes ago when we were talking about the traditional, excuse me, the traditional setting for ayahuasca versus a different context.
So, I think one thing that is true for Ayahuasca, as it is for all medicines is psychedelics, is that set setting does make a difference, right?
Janeth: Absolutely
Adrian: And so, how much of that, and it could be both here, but I, I sort of opened this up to you. I think it's an interesting inquiry... how much of that aspect of what you talk about, of the confusion, and there's so much going on with ayahuasca, is part of the plant medicine itself versus the container?
So comparing that to what it's like when you do that medicine, if someone has ever done it. I'm sure you have, I have most of the time in silence. In the absence of someone who is directing the experience. Like there was no shaman, there wasn't even other people, like I was just by myself in nature.
And that for me, there's still, [00:41:00] I, yeah, I think for me there's still what Ayahuasca is doing, which is it's clearing the karmic channel. So there is something about that medicine where there's a lot of dust in the mirror getting whipped up, but the aspects of it that were confusing for me were very much mitigated when I was doing it either by myself or most of the time with a facilitator in a silent space, With just the facilitator and myself. So I'm curious about that. How much you think is the medicine versus the container?
Janeth: Well, it's hard to say, but definitely because you don't know what is going on in your mind at the moment, what is going on in yourself at the moment that you're taking medicine. And, um, depending the container. But the container, having a safe container is crucial. Having a container where you can feel that you can let go. That somebody has your back. That is a
Adrian: Yes.
Janeth: a skillful guide. And actually for people that are, you have a practice. So you have a solid practice. You can be with the medicine in [00:42:00] silence. Most people cannot. They need,
Adrian: Hmm.
Janeth: the Icaro because that helps them. That guides their experience. Many people could go crazy if they don't have something guiding them. And I will not recommend, especially Ayahuasca to do it alone if you don't have a lot of experience with it. Ayahuasca brings, in order to heal all this, um, unseen traumas. So without the right guidance, could be very confusing, could be scary. Could be re-traumatizing.
So I wouldn't recommend that with ayahuasca. wachuma is a little more easy, but still any plant medicine will need... um, you need a lot of practice before sitting by yourself
Adrian: I agree with you. I mentioned the by myself part, but you know, I only did that after I was very experienced. I should have just compared and contrasted it to a facilitator versus the traditional container. So having a facilitator where even it's just one-on-one.
So you've got the safe space, you've got someone [00:43:00] guiding you. But I mean, for one thing, I, found having everyone else around me, and I'd done a lot of psychedelics by the time I had been on that Lotus Vine retreat, but never ayahuasca. And I'd been practicing Dharma for a bit. On the one hand I found it was a wonderful practice of heart opening to be present with the suffering of other people.
So I found that part of it was good. And at the same time I found that I'm a lot more able to go more deeply into the medicine itself when I don't have other people experiencing very intense reactions around me. Like there's something about the nervous system that just closes up.
Janeth: Yeah, absolutely. Depending how skillful the people that are holding the ceremony are, certainly this can be mitigate
For example, having people that are going through a big release and having a place to take them outside so they cannot, um, be too challenging [00:44:00] for the rest of the participants.
That is important and everything becomes part of the ceremony. You know, at the end of the day, being by yourself gives you a space to just be with you.
But what happens when you are with more people? What are you bringing up? What is that bringing up on you? What is, what needs to be seen?
I feel like if we hold everything in the light of healing and in the light of curiosity, all the experience can be a healing experience.
Adrian: Agreed. And
I think what comes up for me as we talk about this, and again, it's similar to the dharma becoming open source and people can try different approaches, different types of meditation, different paths.
It's, it's good to experiment, you know, as long as it's in a safe way. And I think it can be great to do the group setting; it can be great to do something more private. And I think like all things we tend to gravitate towards the thing that naturally we all align with different approaches. I think on the one hand [00:45:00] it's good to push on your comfort zone sometimes and try something different. And it's also just healthy to acknowledge that there is multiplicity in the universe and diversity, and we're gonna have different paths for different people.
And I think that's one thing that I wonder a little bit and actually how I was able to come back to plant medicine and, and I did some ayahuasca ceremonies, but the primary medicine that I work with now is, people call it Soma, but I talked to you, it's, it's Syrian rue instead of the b caapi
vine with chacruna or with DMT source, like Acacia.
So that's actually the bulk of what I've worked with, is fundamentally similar, yet distinct in important ways I find from ayahuasca. But, I find for me, I really had to find someone who was offering the medicine in a different way, including ayahuasca. Which is, it was one-on-one, it was in nature...
He gave me the option to listen, my own, you know, playlist or icaros or whatever. And then eventually with his encouragement, I started being in silence with it.
But[00:46:00] Entheogens for me is really about a deep connection with nature. And while I enjoy it with people, it was always intimate settings rather than large groups.
That's also how I am just normally, you know, I'd love to go to a dinner party with four people rather than a huge party. And then I know also that people love the large groups, so I think it's so important and it makes sense as the medicine and different plant medicines become more global, that you're gonna have different ways of offering it in order so different people can connect to it.
Does that
Janeth: Absolutely. And they, yeah. And they become different medicines. Like, for many years I was working with Shipibo and Shipibo is dark shadow work. The Icaros are at a certain frequency that it's not, it's not celebratory, not joyful.
And now I've been working with the Brazilian tribes with Hunicuya and Ayanawa. And it's "solo alegría" that is, their slogan. Is only joy.
It's is beautiful. [00:47:00] They heal through the vibration of joy. The first part of the journey is more icaros. And it's profound. And, the second part of the ceremony, when after people have purged and cleaned, then the joy part comes and they bring out guitars. And it's incredible because like the whole--
Adrian: Oh, cool.
Janeth: These are towns in the middle of Brazil, in the middle of nowhere, in Brazil where everybody knows how to play guitar. And they just come out with the guitars and make people dance, make people hug. Is incredibly beautiful because we don't have this.
Our western minds are more Gregorian. We are more used to, as you say, like being by ourselves. And having this communal experience is super healing.
It's like, wow, we forgot how to live in community. If we forgot how to dance with one another, I find that this, um, it's a different type of medicine. And depending on what you wanna heal, what you wanna approach the [00:48:00] medicine for, there is healing for different aspects of ourself and the different seasons in our life.
Adrian: That's very cool, and that makes total sense. You know, I'd only experienced more the Shipibo style. And it makes sense that there'd be different expressions of it. Like, what comes up for me is I grew up going, to an Episcopalian church that was very, you know, sort of white wasp culture. And it was just very somber.
You know, I just never resonated with it. It kind of felt like a funeral, the vibe. It, it just felt very joyless. And I just never connected to spirituality because that was the medium through which it was expressed. And then I went to a black church, a few different black churches like Chicago, DC and it was unbelievable. You know, it was totally joyous and heart opening.
And even though I didn't stick with Christianity, just 'cause I, that wasn't my karma, that, you know, wasn't my path. Like, it was totally different. I thought, oh, like if I were to be Christian, like I, I do feel a connection with this latter path, expression of it as opposed to the former.[00:49:00] It's affirming. It's very affirming life. It's celebrating what's joyous about life instead of, you're a sinner, you're lowly...
you know, you're going, and, and, and my church was not like that expression, but it just it wasn't joyous. And so it's just, again, the set and setting. What a difference it makes. But for different people, different people would resonate with that. You know, the church wasn't
Janeth: uh, .Yeah. And I feel like, um, some people need, that joyful approach, party, Brazilian style. If you have a lot of things that are heavy, if you are dealing with a lot of heavy trauma, that could be a crash. wouldn't be the right fit.
Adrian: Right. As I was telling that story, I said, no wonder I'm in Thailand, because they like to have a good time. They're very joyous,
Janeth: Yeah. I was in Thailand
Adrian: important.
Janeth: I was in Thailand years ago. I love it.
Adrian: Did you, I bet you liked it. I
could see you vibing here with the people and the culture. That's cool.
Janeth: It seems like, [00:50:00] it feels like Latin America, but so different and so similar to Latin America to me.
Adrian: Say more about that. I'm curious what you mean by that.
Janeth: I think they're like a family. This family structure, together. They're joyful. I remember what I liked the most about Thailand was the markets at night.
Adrian: Yeah.
Janeth: And seeing everybody going on at night. And it's also like disorganized. A little disorganized, a little more spontaneous.
Adrian: much more disorganized, much more spontaneous and playful.
Janeth: Yes, that is how Latin America is. Could be, it's not, uh, the cup of everybody, the cup of tea for everybody, but it has life. There is a, this aliveness in the culture.
Adrian: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, that's the balance too. We were talking about traditional versus the modern order and chaos.
You know, there's something that happens when you go to a really organized society, and I love organized for sure. You [00:51:00] know, very much so. I love being in Japan and the train runs on time, but when you're somewhere like Japan or Singapore or Germany, so it's even like diff, very different cultures, right?
Like Germany versus Singapore or Japan. But there's something that's lost, like when it's very organized. I find all of those cultures, I picked them 'cause they're the most organized, the most disciplined. People don't usually describe them as playful, You know?
I find people are very serious there and there's something that kind of can get lost in that process when something else that's wonderful gets gained. So it's interesting how there's like a whole personality that goes along with that lifestyle, right?
Janeth: I feel like actually my retreat's called Pachanoi and one of our team members is a dear friend of mine who is a yogi from Vienna. He has been teaching for over 25 years and he's like this Vienna, Austrian, German person. And his mind is like super logical.
Adrian: Yeah,
Janeth: [00:52:00] And it's so beautiful to work with somebody like that because we balance, there is something, about this mind that can be organized, mind can be logical. It's a gift.
Adrian: It is.
Janeth: And there is also a balance when there is more heart and more emotion. So yeah, we are, we've playing with this ways of being opening for me, opening into this German mind. For him opening into more of a spontaneous approach. And my husband is Australian, and he loves it here. He says like,
Adrian: Hmm.
Janeth: Australia is sterile. And I would love to go live in Australia because you feel so clean and organized.
Adrian: Right. The grass is always greener.
Janeth: Yeah.
Adrian: funny. I appreciate both very much. I appreciate both very much and I appreciate people who teach from both of those places.
You know, I've studied a lot with Tsoknyi [00:53:00] Rinpoche and Minyak Rinpoche. Tsoknyi Rinpoche is my main teacher, but they're wonderful compliments to each other because as one of their senior students said, you know, Minyak Rinpoche is like an engineer. It's step by step. Everything's like very clear and structured and organized. And Tsoknyi Rinpoche is like a jazz musician. He's very playful, he's very spontaneous, he's very, you know, it's, it's a very masculine versus feminine archetypal style of, of teaching. And it's wonderful to have both to bring us
into balance.
Janeth: it calls to different aspects of being human.
Adrian: it does. Both are necessary. One thing I realized that I wanted to come back to, because I see we've been going a little over an hour now, but if you've got time, I'd love to ask you.
When we were talking earlier, you mentioned the shadow aspects that can come up around I think we were specifically talking about ayahuasca at that point, but I don't think it's specific to ayahuasca.
I think that it could happen with other psychedelics, it does, and I think there's a parallel here with the [00:54:00] dharma world in terms of the abuse scandals.
And I'm
just curious to hear your perspective on this is when I look at models, if you look at scandals in the Dharma world, it tends to be more scandal where there's more hierarchy.
Janeth: uh,
Adrian: like with in Tibetans or Zen.
I think this is one great thing about, at least the modern intake of the Insight tradition is, it's a more flat, horizontal power structure. There's more accountability. It's just not as much power concentrated in one person or a few people's hands and the one person often being male traditionally.
Janeth: Yeah.
Adrian: And that's led to a lot of abuse. And it seems like an important part of translating this and removing that shadow and abuse is about... And this is I think what a lot of western cultures bring, fortunately willingness to talk about power dynamics and shadow aspects, and at least that's what it's brought to dharma.
And I'm curious what you see in terms of how to work with [00:55:00] that model, either in the Dharmic context or in entheogenic context that you think will help to reduce suffering and increase joy.
Janeth: Yeah, it's good to name that. It's good to name that it happens. That power can confuse people and it tends to be male, but not necessarily, Taking this with, compassion for the people that lose their sense of ethics through acts that can be harmful, and that happens in every sphere of society. You see entrepreneurs, lawyers, politicians, and also and more painful in the spiritual world I mean.
Being aware of oneself and not losing, not giving the power away. Knowing that in the plant medicine world, especially Western people, because I saw this and I felt [00:56:00] the difference highly between, especially girls that were coming from the U.S, from Europe, and I am from Latin America. So there was this sense of looking for this guru.
There was a sense of like putting this indigenous person in this altar and having this image of the wise Don Juan Carlos
Adrian: Exotified.
Janeth: Type of person. Yeah!
And like is all good. And because I am from Latin America, I know that I, I know the tricks of people. I know how, you know, people.
Adrian: You, you know, they're human like anywhere else,
janeth-j_1_12-06-2023_204223: Yeah.
Janeth: And I take them with more of a grain of salt because I know that they're human. It's been a blessing to have the influx of tourists and money that come to, in a way rescue these practices because many of indigenous young people were not practicing. Were not interested in ayahuasca, were not [00:57:00] interested in these indigenous practices. However, when there is money, there is also people that do this for money. People that don't have integrity. And it's an easy way. You know, you see all these beautiful girls, young girls come and they are at your feet. And it's the same thing that happened with the gurus in the seventies. So we have to acknowledge our responsibility in creating these gurus. Creating these ideal people.
Adrian: I agree.
Janeth: Yeah. And knowing that they are people. Don't lose the contact with our own awareness, with our with our own body. We will know what is right, what is wrong if we are connected to our bodies.
Unfortunately, I don't trust many people in this world of, uh, shamanism. And, if coming here, especially being a woman, you gotta make your homework. You gotta find out who you are drinking with. You gotta know alone by yourself in the middle of the jungle [00:58:00] with a guy, perhaps it's not a good idea.
Adrian: Any tips that you'd have to younger people, especially women who are considering making a journey? Like what are some of the questions they should
ask themselves or things they should be looking for?
Janeth: Yeah, totally. I have tons of tips, tips for a safe journey in plant medicine. First off, know where you're
Adrian: are your kind of top, yeah, five.
Janeth: Yeah.
Adrian: Know where you're going.
Janeth: Do research. Talk to people that have gone to these places. Before going find out if you can talk to them. If they do a screening. Back in the day, 10 years ago, nobody used to do screening. So people will rock and you don't know if they have a psychotic breakdowns, if they're using drugs. Uh, being in a group that has people that have a lot of traumas or have not be well screened is not good.
So go to a place that do good screening. Go to a place that has good reviews. Never be [00:59:00] alone with a man Shaman by yourself. Always have somebody there. You don't know. Know what is in the medicine. What type of medicine are you drinking?
Adrian: Yes. No datura, please.
Janeth: No, thank, my first, my first whole retreat was, was with datura. With, they call it toy here. Oh my God. It was dark. Yeah.
Adrian: That was your first one.
It's amazing. You had a second. Yeah.
Janeth: I, I don't know how I went there. It was just so full on. I didn't know the medicine back then. And somebody gave them this medicine that had in the brew.
Adrian: My gosh.
Janeth: Yeah. I survive.
Adrian: Definitely know what's in it. That's key. That's true for anything. Best practice.
So Janethh, I want to thank you so much for your time and I want to give you the opportunity as well to let people know where they can find you and about any upcoming offerings you have, anything of that nature.[01:00:00]
Janeth: Absolutely. Well, I'm the founder of this beautiful organization that is called Pachanoi Earth Medicine Retreat.
And I work with wachuma, which is this powerful, powerful, sacred medicine from Peru and Ecuador. One of the oldest entheogenics.
You can find me at PachanoiRetreats.com. will write it down for you. we are gonna have two retreat next year. So one retreat is at the end of July from the 19th to the 28th and the other one is in October. And these are 10 days retreats.
We do three ceremonies. Ceremonies with wachuma is like a whole day ceremony. So we do one day ceremony in this beautiful luch and it is a ceremony for intimate connection with the medicine, to understand the medicine, to understand oneself.
The second ceremony is a hike. So we go to a sacred Inca ruins that are nearby. [01:01:00] And it is, uh, being with the medicine, hiking in sacred lands, push you. It's a ceremony where people find their strength. Where people find their drive. And uh, we end in this beautiful sacred cave.
And the last ceremony is an all night ceremony. a ceremony of death and rebirth.
Adrian: All night?
Janeth: Even... All night. So we go all night from like seven to seven in the morning. That ceremony seems like a ayahuasca and it feels weak because it's three different ways of drinking the medicine. The medicine, uh, feels different each time. And they are being prepared so in the first one, you get to know the medicine, and you feel comfortable. In the second one, you get to know your body. And you feel comfortable in your body. In the third one, it's like, okay, this is the deepest one. It's like you die and come back as the sun comes up. There is this reborn process that [01:02:00] happens in the psyche, in the body as well.
We have a few pillars in this retreat. With one is mindfulness, which I will be teaching some mindfulness and going deep into meditation. We also deeply with yoga.
So I work with a yoga teacher that has been trained for at least 25 years. He's in his mid fifties and he teaches in different traditions, Kundalini yoga, Ashtanga. And we believe in this, um, different connection with the body in the sacred spaces. This connection with breathwork in this space is super powerful. It helps move energy.
And the other pillar of our retreats is that we hold it here in the Sacred Valley. So we go into the sacred sites of Inca culture. We also work with indigenous people that come and bring their culture as well. So this is a, it's a very beautiful offering. Very healing, very [01:03:00] joyful. The shamanic tradition that we are working with is like a mix of red like the Native American. So we work in a tipi. But it's like a more modern way of the red path. And uh, the most important is like this, keeping this fire, keeping this integration with the group, with people, and speaking to the fire.
Which is incredible. The speaking part of, uh, the journey, which is at the end of the ceremony where everybody will talk. That is when the emotions come up.
I just started this project this year. We had our first retreat this year and next year we're gonna have, uh, two more retreats. And I, yeah. I hope you everybody can come
Adrian: I would love that. I would love that. I'm
Janeth: Yeah,
Adrian: Well, hope to have the opportunity one day to, um,
to make it down there. It sounds really amazing. Yeah.
Janeth: Please.
Adrian: So thank you so much for your time,
Janeth: than
Adrian: this was great.
Janeth: Thank you. It's been, uh, wonderful [01:04:00] talking to you.. Bye. Have a wonderful night.
Adrian: Thank Janeth. Appreciate your time.