Empowering Spiritual Growth with Psilocybin Mushrooms

Episode Summary:

Episode 2 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Chi Psilocybin from MushroomTao. This episode revolves around Chi's spiritual journey which began with meditation in the Theravada tradition and pivots to incorporate the use of psilocybin mushrooms. Chi provides insight on the intersection of Dharma and psychedelics and emphasizes how both practices were pivotal in addressing certain elements of his trauma and depression. Some topics explored include the multiple facets of mindfulness, addiction, fame, and how mushrooms can be a powerful mechanism for empowering people to make a change.

Episode Highlights:

  • 00:09 Introduction and Chi's Journey into Meditation

  • 11:23 The Impact of Mushrooms on Chi's Life and his Approach to Guiding Others On Psychedelic Journeys

  • 19:42 Buddhism’s Impact Perspective and Value Shifts

  • 26:10 The Negative Impact of Social Media and The Desire For Fame

  • 31:54 Humility, Gratitude, and Power Dynamics in the Guru Role

  • 36:43 The Value of Embodying Teachings, Connecting to the Heart, and Encouraging Self-Reliance

Guest Bio:

Chi Psilocybin is a facilitator, connector, and mentor for journeyers at every stage of the psilocybin initiation, from curious seekers to experienced guides and growers. He supports journeyers in managing expectations, letting go of rigid ideas, avoiding common pitfalls, and approaching psychedelic experiences with a long-term perspective. He is the co-founder of MushroomTao.Com, TripSitters.Org, and PsychEdCR.Org.

CONNECT WITH CHI


Full Transcript:

Adrian: I'm Adrian Baker, and this is Redesigning the Dharma. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with Chi Psilocybin, because Chi has an interesting story starting out his journey, practicing in the Theravada tradition under Sayadaw U Pandita in Burma, and then finding himself gravitating towards psychedelics because there was certain things about his dharma journey as we get into that weren't addressed in terms of trauma and things like that, that Chi found immense help with from psychedelics.

So we get into that conversation, but it was great talking to Chi precisely because I think he's someone who has a very strong background and a real passion for the interests that I share at this intersection of Dharma and psychedelics. So Chi is a facilitator, a connector, and a mentor for journeyers at [00:01:00] every stage of the psilocybin initiation, from curious seekers to experienced guides and growers.

He supports journeyers to manage expectations, let go of rigid ideas, and approach psychedelic experiences with a long term perspective. 

Having learned from many challenging plant medicine journeys, he helps others avoid common pitfalls. And the more that he works with and learns from the mushrooms, the more he feels like their humble student. That gives him important lessons to share with others. 

Chi is also a co-founder of "MushroomTao.com", com, " TripSitters.org", and "PsychCR.org". And without further ado, my conversation with Chi Psilocybin. 

Adrian: Chi, thank you so much for joining us on Redesigning the Dharma. I'm really glad to have you here. You know, we've spoken a few times before, but I really wanted to have you on precisely because I think you have an interesting background both dharma and meditation and in psychedelics, and that's a lot of what we're talking about on this platform.

So thank you for joining.

Chi: [00:02:00] Beautiful. Happy to be here and chatting with the friend for sure.

Adrian: So I will have read your bio in the intro, but if you just wanna start by briefly stating a little bit about what you do to give some context for the audience. 

Chi: Well now mostly I am supporting psychedelic practitioners and clients, journeyers, the whole range from people seeking out their first experience, or who have had a few experiences, micro doses, bigger doses want to continue to people guiding others, supporting others, building organizations, growers building nonprofits.

Whoever wants to talk to me in the psychedelic space, usually I'm open to having a conversation and just listening and encouraging them to keep going.

Adrian: Great. And you're based where?

Chi: I'm in Costa Rica. Been here since March of 2020, so coming on four years. 

Adrian: Great. We'll circle back to some of the questions all of that raises, but would love to start off by talking about how you got into either psychedelics or, dharma and meditation and [00:03:00] which of those came first? I'm curious to hear.

Chi: Definitely the meditation came first. Yeah, late teens, early twenties, I went to my first vipassana retreat I think when I was 21. And that really was obviously life changing, 10 days sitting in silence. I had never done anything like that or are even close to that.

So, yeah, somehow I was very down depressed, low self-esteem, you know, all the issues that American youth face. Well, maybe not all American youth, but definitely for me not being able to fit in, being very sensitive to the environment... And yeah, also I grew up in a mostly Caucasian middle school and high school, and I was one of only a few Asians, so definitely had some cultural issues there as well. 

And the meditation really opened my mind and my heart and over the next few years, I sat a few meditation retreats in the US and also in Asia, couple times in Burma and Thailand. And yeah, that was really the start [00:04:00] of my spiritual journey. 

Psychedelics came in later, like 27...

Adrian: Do you mind me pausing and just asking you a bit about that before we go to psychedelics. 

You mentioned vipassana. I'm curious; like what lineage, what style of practice and you try different styles and paths? 

Chi: Yeah, I sat Goenka-ji's Vipasana... 10 day retreats. I think I've done 10 of those, and I stayed at center to volunteer for sometimes two, three months at a time. 

So I would, you know, sit and then serve one or two retreats and then sit again. So that was really a beautiful opportunity as a young person to just be in a supported space. Great teachers, smiling people, being able to see the transformations in people before and after their vipsasana journeys. 

Being sort of ambitious and impatient, I said, I need to do longer than 10 days. And so I was searching, searching. And then I went to Burma to sit a special two month retreat that Sayadaw U Pandita had each year. So that was, I think December and January[00:05:00] of like 2016 or 17 or something. 

Adrian: And you sit with him? Was he there?

Chi: Yes, he was there giving dharma talks almost every night. So yeah, that was a, that was a super privilege. 

And just to feel the power of his presence, like every time he stepped into the room, just people got serious about the Dharma pretty much, you know, everything stopped. And to watch these, you know, he has obviously a lot of students and his main disciples or students, they're like sixy and seventies and they're still like bowing down right before, you know, in a line behind him. 

So it was really amazing to witness the humility and the strong practice and just the dedication to the truth. 

Yeah, the care they have for one's life... I think he was in his late eighties already, or early nineties, so he was already facing tremendous health issues, but never. you know, people like that, they never have people try to worry about them, right?

They just keep everything, [00:06:00] all their suffering under wraps and they just present themselves for other people. So, yeah, it's really beautiful. 

And then I went back, another three months there, a couple years later. I, I spent the, I think three months in the Barry, Massachusetts Insight Meditation Center.

Adrian: Oh yeah.

Chi: I did two months at the Forest Refuge at a silent retreat. And then they were doing their special 90 day retreat or something. So the latter third of that, I think I said I needed more stimulation or something like that. So I sat in the retreat center, which is right down the road.

Right before that, I did a, a couple months at Gaia House in the UK, which was really great. I think, was it two or three months? I forget. Anyway, it's amazing how I start to forget things. Like how much time I spent, you know, when I was really in it, it was like precise how many days I spent. But now it's sort of like, it's like a dream in the past almost...

Adrian: It's interesting, you know, for the, the audience who didn't catch us talking before we started recording, you know, you were modestly saying, "oh, I didn't practice too much. I mean, adding up all that retreat... [00:07:00] It sounds like a lot of retreat. 

Like, sounds like, you spent almost a, year on silent retreat 

Chi: Yeah. I think it was…

Adrian: something like that.

Chi: Yeah, I think it was more than a year.... 

Adrian: Wow. That's a lot of practice. 

Chi: But, you know, the karma is deep. 

I try to bow down to my teachers each morning... first thing but other than that, you know, I'm not disciplined or anything. I just do my best to show up, listen, you know, I'm like a person in the world. 

Adrian: No, I resonate with that. I'm sure a lot of people in the audience can as well. I mean, there are, times in life where perhaps you have the opportunity to practice and the motivation as well.

And for people who are, I mean people, some people say, you know, really listen to that while you have the motivation. And I found that's very true 'cause I had that very intensely for 

a period of time as well. And I don't feel that call so much now. So if there are people listening, I would say, you know, if you feel that call, do it. What I'm curious about, 'cause I think so many people do that and perhaps like you now, you know, it's maybe even sitting as much, I don't know, daily sitting if it's not as much part of your practice. 

 How did that intense period or practice for a period of time shape you now? [00:08:00] Even if you still don't go on retreat or you still don't sit as much?

Chi: First, I wanna say Sayadaw U Pandita would always say practice when you're young. Practice when you're young.

I remember being at the Goenka-ji Centers and older people would say, you're so lucky to have found this when you're this young. You know? And now I realize like, wow, even starting now in my mid thirties would be so difficult. 

Once a person is more established and has responsibilities, it's really hard to make 10 days or even like a weekend to put everything aside. 

Yeah, it was very humbling after that intense period where I sat a couple of long retreats in a row to just come back and be completely depressed and like, deal with addiction issues and come right back into how I was before.

So it was really a great reminder of how infinite the journey is and, you know, a few months of sitting here and there... yes, it's obviously gonna make a big difference and also, it's not gonna solve our problems, and we're not gonna be able to [00:09:00] escape who we are and the patterns we have are still gonna be there.

It's just then we might have a different relationship with those patterns, maybe have some more compassion. 

So, I mean definitely the meditation has allowed me to do the psychedelic work. You know, just being present with people, listening sort of understanding trajectory also of what people have to go through.

I don't give this false sense that, oh, overnight you'll be fixed or something. I realize that it's really a long-term path and that the mushrooms are just gonna show people, but then they still have to implement more holistic ways of... you know, you can't just be taking mushrooms every day and just be in the psychedelic realm if you have to function in the world.

So, you have to have some kind of daily practice routines to be a part of society, sort of. 

Adrian: Well, it actually, that goes back, I find, to the comment about practice and retreat, because also if you want to be in the world, you can't be sitting in silent retreat all the time. It's [00:10:00] kind of one or the other. 

I started in Theravada as well, and I had to shift to, different view of awakening, a different way of relating to practice that felt more compatible with daily life or else there's this subtle kind of sense that, you know, there's practice here on retreat and then there's daily life and can kind of set up that dichotomy.

Did you experience that or did you almost not get to experience that because you had these intense other issues with addiction that were screaming at you?

Chi: Well, I mean, when I was younger, didn't have as much responsibilities. I didn't have as many bills, I didn't have as many people to support, so I could go in and out a little bit more freely. But, you know, always coming out, it was always a struggle to somehow make money or something like that.

I think, especially with career, it's hard to just put that on pause nowadays 

Adrian: Yeah.

Chi: for an extended period. But maybe that's an assumption, you know, maybe that's a, there's fear of losing something there. So, yeah, I think also the world is changing and has changed so much dramatically.

 It's not [00:11:00] easy to keep something going. Things are shifting so fast. In three months, what you were doing before retreat might be completely different and then to have to reinvent yourself, it's difficult to just keep going back to retreat and then out, going, the momentum, and then have that momentum stop again.

You know, community is important, right? And I think these psychedelic tools are really amazing. teachers and helps us connect with nature. 

And so that for me, like the mushrooms are the greatest Taoist and Buddhist teachers there are. So being able to commune with and have them running through the body and the mind and having them clear out the body mind, it's sort of like a mini shortcut that is awesome if you already have a base of meditation.

Adrian: You've said several things now that intrigue me and I want to ask you to expand on, but the last one I don't want to miss that thought because that was very interesting. 

In what ways do you see the mushrooms as the most profound buddhist and Taoist teachers?

Chi: Obviously, of course [00:12:00] that doesn't mean there aren't great Buddhist teachers and 

Adrian: Right 

Chi: but it's the most accessible... for me at least. Especially in Costa Rica, it's super accessible gummies or chocolates and capsules and dried mushrooms. 

They're like the silent masters. You ingest a little bit and somehow they're helping you clear your perspective.

It's like windshield wipers, you know, you can have a dirty windshield, but with a couple of micro doses, it's all clear again. 

Our little project is called Mushroom Tao because The Tao says something like a master teaches without speaking or something like and it feels like mushrooms don't use any words, they really help us get in touch with reality and life and death and the coming and going and the rising and passing away. 

And it just helps us be more joyful, more loving, more generous. So I consider them my great teachers, great ancestors.

Adrian: So one thing that I sort of notice in you talking about your experiences, and I always find this interesting with [00:13:00] psychedelics, is people make meaning of the experience through the conceptual frameworks that resonate with them.

And so, it seems to me like this is one way in which the dharma and also Taoism has continued to impact you. 

It's not just the seated meditation, it's you're making sense of your psychedelic work in some big ways through this Set of teachings. 

Chi: I think even after a little bit in retreat, it's hard to forget at least the intellectual concepts of, you know, the three characteristics right? The aniccā, dukkha, anatta, you know, everything is coming going, nothing is satisfactory, permanent individual self.

Like, that sticks with me even if I don't sit. It's like that's constantly the framework through which I'm looking at the world. 

Even when I'm falling into patterns, there's a way of being able to be aware of when I'm in a pattern. 

Sometimes it's difficult to put it to words, but, yeah, I see a lot of life through the Buddhist lens [00:14:00] and, on my altars, pretty much mostly Buddhist teachers. 

So yeah, I'm still, you know, and we have Tibetan prayer flags here. We have a Tibetan monk his name is Lama Dorje. He makes great mantras. You can find them on whatever, YouTube. Spotify, but he's in Costa Rica. He's building a base here, so yeah, still very connected in some ways to the Buddhist traditions.

Adrian: Very beautiful. wanted to go back to your story when you were talking about how you were sitting those long retreats, but then you found out meditation isn't gonna solve all your problems, which I think is a misconception many of us have. 

We sort of harbor that fantasy going in, and I'm curious what was kind of that reality check for you? What did it not solve and how did you have to go about figuring how to work with that?

Chi: I think meditation doesn't, especially especially the long ones, it's hard to come out and be a person and to have to label oneself, after letting go of all those and identities... The world requires some kind of identity and a strong one to make it, to [00:15:00] find a niche. 

You can't just be... sit in meditation and everybody should feed me. That's not how it works. So that was the most difficult to somehow all of a sudden put myself back into a box when I spent, you know, a couple months, two, three months, six months coming out of this box. 

What's difficult is that our Western culture is so individualistic so to go from that loving care in a Buddhist monastery where everyone cares for each other, they'll go out of their way to help you, you're sitting in the same room silently practicing with other people to somehow spending time in front of a screen to try to figure out how to make money or something like that. 

The western culture has no Buddhist base, so it's hard to go from this kind pure Buddhism back to a society that doesn't recognize value, any of that.

Adrian: How do you find it in Costa Rica? Because it's, I mean, it's very different of course, but it's not a Buddhist country, so..

Chi: But you know, here people are a little bit more [00:16:00] connected with nature. Like you can see behind me, I live in the jungle more or less, you know, obviously it's, it's nice and there's roads. But yeah, I live at the end of the road, there's no one around so I feel like the Buddha's original teachings were go in the forest and sit with the trees, and of course now I have fiber optic and laptops and phones, but I'm still surrounded by greenery. 

And this greenery really helps me relax my mind and heart. And the national slogan of Costa Rica is Pura Vida, which is like " pure life," " clean life," "easy life," "relaxed life." People say it as a greeting, people say it as a goodbye. So it's sort of like "aloha." 

So there's a kind of of Pura Vida spirit that is way more relaxed. There's less aggression here, there's less of this kind of chasing. Of course everyone needs to make money. The dollar system affects everything. But I feel like in people, there's less of this kind of chasing and more of this kind of, people look at each other, people smile. [00:17:00] There's farmers' markets, right? 

It's a very small country, 5 million people. So throughout the country, you see, someone from the other side of the country sometimes in one part of the country. 

So especially living in a certain place, the same people over and over so there's this kind of need to communicate and relate with people that in the US I think you can just, you literally don't have to communicate with anyone throughout the day if you didn't want to besides your phone. So yeah, it's a more down to Earth here. 

Adrian: I can relate to that being in Thailand for sure. 

What you're saying brings up an interesting question that I'm sure some people have when they come to you. I imagine many people do your retreats, they're looking to make a change, and there's kind of this question I imagine a lot of people have where it's how big of a change do they have to make in their, fill in the blank... their physical environment, their relationships, their job, et cetera, in order to change the behaviors and the mindsets they want to change.

B ecause obviously not everyone is going to choose to leave the U. S. or their home [00:18:00] country, they're not going to choose to go to a smaller town, and yet it can be helpful, at least for a period of time to step out of that. I'm curious in your experience, how you coach people to work with that balance individually?

Chi: Well, first it's really starting low, going slow, right? Starting with some microdosing. So you see how the mind is shifting and become aware of what's not working in one's life or what's not resonating anymore. 

So I feel like naturally, taking mushrooms, taking other psychedelics will shift people's minds. 

Sooner or later, if they continue on the path, like the environment has to shift and sort of catch up with how the mind is, or the mind will just be unable to bear a certain environment or situation or relationship anymore because it's so different than the mind that got them in this environment, situation, or relationships.

I really encourage people to start at home where they are. And also if you're in a unhappy relationship, you don't like your job. You know, it's difficult to somehow take mushrooms and be happy right away. You [00:19:00] might need to see how these conditions are making you very unhappy, you know, so sometimes there needs to be some tough decisions made, and it really comes down to values, right? 

What do we value the most? is it the security of the job? Is it being in a relationship, even if it's unfulfilling or is there some desire to drop those things. I usually don't tell people what to do ever. It's just helping them be aware. And also for me, it's, I have faith in the mushrooms to teach lessons. So, I really just leave it up to people and the mushrooms and whatever the decisions they come up with, I do my best to support and encourage that.

Adrian: So in talking about your own experience, which you started to touch on earlier, you know, kind of the . limitations you sort of hit with meditation and how you got into psychedelics. I know in your bio you mentioned struggles with addiction and depression. 

I'm curious if you can perhaps use your own story to just share in what ways did psychedelics bring something to your healing process that, meditation couldn't[00:20:00] quite do?

Chi: You know, I've cried so much on psychedelics. I definitely cried a couple times in meditation, but not like psychedelics. 

Psychedelics, it feels like it gets to the root so quickly. It unravels, especially at the higher doses, it's being thrown in a washing machine or out like a sponge. There's this ancestry part that the meditation didn't really get to.

For me, maybe it was because I wasn't, probably wasn't developed at all at that period. Maybe I wasn't ready for that. But with the mushrooms, my gosh, like seeing into ancestors' lives and how, what they went through and more about like archetypes, you know yeah, it's difficult to explain, but it's like it gets to the root of the shame and the guilt and it sort of over time it clears that out. 

You know, I had a lot of shame and all kinds of guilt, like these kind of very low vibration feelings that was driving me to try to do whatever I was trying to do, you know, make [00:21:00] money or be successful. 

But now, that drive has totally faded away. And maybe it's time, maybe it's environment, obviously the meditation really helped. 

But there's something about the mushrooms that just like, it, like exhausts all that drive over time. And I couldn't be happier.

Adrian: It's so interesting because I think of many Americans when they would hear that, especially the kind of demographic and peer group I grew up in, my friends, they would think, "exhausting my drive, that would sound like a nightmare." They don't want that to happen, and you hear people saying this, "oh, I don't want to, meditate I'll lose my edge," but I know you don't mean it in that sense.

Can you talk about sort of what you mean by your "

Chi: Drive," I mean this kind of ambition. Like trying fill the emptiness. 

This drive to create something bigger or more successful. But once that drive is gone, we can act more love, of this kind of personal will and we can be way more generous. We can come from a place of contentment and [00:22:00] fulfillment and openness instead of this more like blinder type feel we're conditioned within the US, especially if we're intelligent or gifted somehow. 

The choices we're given are so limited as gifted children in the us, especially if you're going to like Ivy Leagues... it's like the Ivy Leagues are just little ponds for the tech companies and finance companies and venture capital funds, private equity to come in and like take their pick of the smartest people to just put them as cogs in the machine. 

That's where it comes down to values, right? What do people value? For me, I, value this sense of freedom and openness instead of being involved in more and more things or something like that, which I used to be driven by, but now I value my free time and I value the open space that my life feels like sometimes. 

Of course, the karma doesn't just disappear. I still try to get busy sometimes to try to make me [00:23:00] feel like I have a purpose or that I'm an important person or something. 

There are periods where I'm like, oh, I'm really happy that do I want without having all these appointments or something like that.

Adrian: I can relate to that, you know, as an expat, I think I remarked recently you know, even with being outside the U. S. for like 13 years, there are times where I just catch myself. It takes a long time for that kind of . protestant work ethic, productivity, busyness, the sense that you have to fill your time for the sake of it to unwind.

And I think something that you said really got to the heart of my previous question, which it's it's not even so much about output or creativity. It has a lot to do with your intention. 

Like, I have a friend who's, mean, I guess some people would call him a workaholic. He's very successful commercially and in other sense, but I know for him, it's not about the money.

It really is just what he loves to do. It's not because he thinks he's going to gain more status from it, or the money is going to make him happier. He actually loves the process. And so I think it comes back to that Buddhist idea [00:24:00] of right intention. 

If we're doing it to fill ourselves up for these extrinsic reasons, then that's the real problem.

Chi: Mm-Hmm.

Adrian: As opposed to it coming from a place of, I love doing this work or whatever.

Chi: Right. 

Adrian: Does feel like what you meant?

Chi: Exactly. Yeah, if a person is really aligned and they feel like they're helping people, I mean, . , definitely that's what drives people sometimes is the helping people, right? Of course there's subtle layers, there's so many very subtle desires, why we do certain things. Also, the creative drive. 

For me, I've lost some of that creative drive as well. I-- Because I've created some things in the and then I see like the energy it takes to maintain these things. So I'm a lot more careful. 

I question and I hesitate before creating something because it's easy to just do something that comes to your mind right away.

But actually, can you manage all of these, or is it just ideas that gets started, something gets created, but there's no like [00:25:00] follow through, right? 

I have ideas all the time. I have ideas, I've been mulling on for like a year, two years, but I go, do I really want to do that? 

I can foresee what it's gonna take to maintain that... And especially in the mushroom space, everything grows so quickly and so exponentially, so really stop myself before doing something sometimes. 

I don't know if it's good or bad, but that's just my personal 

Adrian: No, I resonate... that way you talk about it, it really reminds me of the Buddhist value of renunciation.... and it's sort of like in reinterpreting, what renunciation means for those of us who don't choose to be monks, that the dharma has meaning. And it's very hard to understand, I think, for many modern people that the idea that giving something up, you actually gain more, but we don't realize how much energy, when we put into something it then has karmic consequences. 

It then requires all this effort to maintain our wealth, our possessions, our status, relationships, whatever.

[00:26:00] And not that that's bad, but I think that's part of meditation. We begin to just see more clearly and start to be more discerning about when that's actually making us happy or not.

Chi: Yeah. There's a great book, "A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life," and it talks about wealth and fame in there, and it says anybody who stops you from being famous is like your best friend, you know? 

So, and in my mushroom journeys that's come up several times, I mean, many, many times is being, well-known is not always a positive... although in our culture, that's what's sold is the fame is the number one thing to go to, and people drive themselves to be famous.

But actually, you know, I used to have some of that drive, and now... Even doing podcasts, you know, I went there period of doing a lot of podcasts, but now it's like, this is the second one in a couple of weeks, but before that I was saying no to, every invitation because I'm like, no, I don't want my face out there actually. 

You know, questioning this drive [00:27:00] for fame and wealth, like, where does this come from? Why do we wanna be famous? It's pretty clear, like being famous has its perks. People recognize you, you might get more opportunities. You become more attractive to the other gender.

But then at a certain point, it also becomes this kind of trap. It becomes like a cage. So like Pink Floyd says did trade a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage? Or something like that. 

I think about that line so much because these were people that really were as famous as you can get in this world and they struggled with fame as well, right?, I mean, I don't have any solutions. I'm just spit balling contemplations

Adrian: Yeah, but I think it can be helpful for people even just to pause and think about it because I think one interesting thing that I noticed is... 

You know, if we'd had this conversation when I first moved to Thailand in 2010, I probably would have remarked on a lot of the ways in which that was very cultural and like American culture really [00:28:00] prizes that, which I think it does.

Of course, it's a very human thing, but some cultures elevate it more than others. But I think the interesting thing is with technology and with social media and the way that anyone can be famous now, through just having a big social media following, this whole aspiration among people who are younger to be influencers without against the intention being an influencer can be great, but why do you want to be an influencer?

People just say that without questioning it. You hear a lot of people who have kids or who teach young students remark on that.

And so it seems like the technology has had a really powerful role there.

Chi: Yeah. And I think this is a tragedy. I mean, to want to become famous for no other reason than to be famous, that's like the emptiest life you could ever imagine.

I feel sad for this upcoming generation. I mean, the empty holes in their hearts they're trying to fill is just, yeah, I can't imagine.

Adrian: So first of all, for people to do retreats with you, what's sort of the age range, what's the median age? And I'm curious if, if you're [00:29:00] working with people who do have addictions to technology?

Chi: I think we've seen maybe 250 people in retreat. Retreats are sort of secondary for us now. We support people at home. We get medicine out to them in the U.S.. I've probably worked with a couple thousand people in their own homes. 

I assume everyone has some kind of addiction to technology. I mean, I'm in front of my screen. It's hard for me to unglue myself as well. It's like a coping mechanism, like it's hard to sit with oneself and all the situations in the world without going a little crazy, I think. 

I mean maybe that's me. There are definitely obviously great meditators that don't need any kind of, that kind of stimulation. 

You know, I see it every day in myself, in other people. I assume people have some coping mechanisms that might look like addictions. So in the 2000 people, I've probably seen almost every kind of addiction there can be. 

Probably not like fentanyl, but I've definitely seen people addicted to opiates, like over and over. Probably one [00:30:00] or two, methamphetamine people. But also have seen OCD. People get addicted to the thoughts, you know, thinking and this rigid thought pattern. I don't know too much about OCD, but every time I see someone with OCD, I really feel for them because man, that's a difficult one to get through. 

There's issues with alcohol is all over the place. I mean, a lot of people struggle with alcohol. I mean people are on antidepressants, benzos. 

This culture, our culture is made to get people addicted. That's how the economic machine functions-- is addicted people. 

So yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm trying to pull people out of machine little bit.

Adrian: So many of these people who come on retreat, do a lot of them, end up leaving the machine, so to speak, in terms of their job, Or do they end up making those big decisions? 

Chi: Yeah, some people do make some big decisions. It's not easy though, you know, especially the higher up status they have in society, the harder it is for them to even come on retreat to even start this journey. But I've seen a, [00:31:00] few people yeah, definitely completely transform their lives and shift careers Also a quote from the Bible sticks with me, " it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to enter the eye needle. 

I've seen this over and over is the more money, wealth, status, power, someone has, the more difficult the spiritual path is. And usually, they don't go very far because it's like reversing the Titanic, like a huge ship that has so much momentum going one way and to say, "okay, we're gonna turn around is... 

The Titanic isn't gonna just turn around, it's gonna take gargantuan effort if it ever gets to that, you know? 

This is sort of a side note, but I like working with humble, intelligent, curious people. 

Sometimes I love working with attorneys. 

Um, there are some doctors I love working with; some therapists are awesome to work with; teachers, you know, of course a wide variety... 

But the main thing is humility. This has already changed in the five years I've been in the spaces. So many more people are more humble [00:32:00] when they're starting off, even the people with higher status.

There used to be more of this kind of entitled like, gimme the mushrooms, or like, I'm paying use so you do a job for me. But now there's this kind of gratitude for, wow, thank you for providing this, and I'm so happy to be starting on this journey. 

Adrian: That's great. 

It doesn't feel like a side note. I think you know, what you talked about there, some of the important qualities, so things that really help people to make a change you found are... curiosity, gratitude. 

Chi: Yep. One of my early teachers said uh, humility and gratitude are two sides of the same coin. So whenever I hear someone saying I'm grateful, I wanna work with them because I know they're humble, right? I know they're receiving and they're not expecting, and they're thankful for the opportunity. 

Yeah, I can feel it immediately. Even in texts or emails how humble someone is and how grateful. So yeah, what other qualities? I mean, open-heartedness, compassion, right? 

It's like less about fixing [00:33:00] one's own problems than about going on a journey. 

The mushrooms are really good at getting people started, but they'll show you that it's not about yourself pretty quickly. 

For some people it takes longer to realize that it's not about themselves And for others they never get to that point. They keep thinking that it's about fixing something about themselves or feeling better all the time or something like that. So I like when people say, I'm ready to start my spiritual journey.

Adrian: Nice. And, it just made me think of this when you were talking about working on opening the heart. So for example, do you give people kind of any meditation, any loving kindness practices to either prepare them for that heart opening, or to deepen it afterwards?

Chi: You know, I try not to teach anyone any I try not to be an authority in meditation whatsoever, or like any kind of spiritual practice really. But you know, we have a book called "Psilocybin 101" that we send as a PDF. In there, there's a section on meditation and other practices as well. 

Yeah, you know, usually [00:34:00] I'm saying breathe, smile, grateful, right? Really basic instructions to help people relax. I feel like loving kindness is sort of even a little bit more advanced. If someone is like, I'm depressed forever, I've been depressed for years, it's hard for them to feel any love, right? So my job is really just to say, breathe. breathe, relax. 

Get started and I have faith that the mushrooms. will help people just be more grateful and be more loving. So yeah, I sort of delegate a lot of the work to the mushrooms.

Adrian: It sounds like you, have a little aversion to sort of doing anything that's spiritual, religious... Of course, you can teach, and there are people who teach you know, meditation, including loving kindness meditation in a secular way...

 But I'm curious what do you think is underneath that aversion for you, including even to a secular approach to meditation or even referring to people who teach it in a secular way? 

Chi: That's a great question, something I grapple with all time. In my practice, I don't wanna be seen as like a guru or like teacher. I [00:35:00] want people to be independent and self-sufficient. I want them to commune with the mushrooms and obviously find other spiritual teachers. 

I get very uncomfortable when someone says, "oh, you're a great teacher, or, yeah, it's a very good question. I mean, to be honest, I don't know, but there's this also this kind of feeling of, I don't want people looking up to me. 

But I don't exactly know where that comes from. And also, I think it's because I know how undeveloped I am, so I don't want anyone to have any kind of false illusions that I am somehow more than what I am. I think that's sort of what it comes down to.

Adrian: No, I appreciate you sharing it and perhaps we can inquire into it together because I feel that very much as well. I'm very by temperament, just kind of anti guru, even though I came around to studying with people who I would consider guru, they're in a traditional Vajrayana role, and I'm totally okay relating to them that way because I learned there's a conscious way to relate to that that isn't about submission and it's not giving up [00:36:00] critical thinking, but that's really not something that I want to take on. And I realized there's a lot of hesitancy I have well in terms of offering certain things to the role we put ourselves. 

So I guess it's a larger question of how someone can offer something, whether that is facilitating psychedelics, helping them to integrate psychedelics, teaching meditation, and not put themselves in that kind of role.

Because you don't want to put yourself in that guru role with all of this sort of shadow that invites, and on the other hand, you don't want to not Be able to offer resources to people that were helpful to you and could help them because you're afraid of that.

Chi: Yeah, it's a great, it's very complex discussion. 

You know, I think it's because people already put me on a pedestal when they're coming. 

So I'm trying to balance that out little bit by empowering them. For me, the mushrooms teach decentralization of power, so it's really taking power away from myself and giving it to others. [00:37:00] That's really my practice as much as possible. 

And also, some people are ready for things like Metta and Vipassana, and some people are not. 

Maybe this is making an assumption, but some people are just... but people are just 

so so deep, dark in their depression or anxiety, it's like hard for them to sit even for a couple minutes or a minute, you know?

So. I feel like when people are ready, they'll be more ready for those practices and that's why we provide that Psilocybin 1 0 1. I mean, when people ask about resources, spiritual teachers, dharma, I'm like, floodgate, you know? I really want to support people... and also, you know, religion is also a sticky issue, right?

So I don't necessarily want to push a certain viewpoint, even if it's the Buddhist viewpoint. If someone asks me, I'm more than happy to share it, but maybe there's ways to do it more secularly say, this is making me question... 

Adrian: Yeah, and I can definitely relate to it. I mean, I asked you that question wanting to come up with some answers for myself as well. 

I [00:38:00] think one thing that I noticed around people, and part of what you said is the answer, it's really actively popping projections and doing that from the get go in terms of how we present ourselves.

' Because one thing I do notice around people is... so many people when they hear someone's a yoga teacher or a meditation teacher and they think, oh, you got mad, but I thought you taught yoga or you got annoyed. I thought you taught meditation. 

And so there's this fantasy that, you know, if I taught meditation, then I would never get annoyed, Or if I practice enough meditation, we never get annoyed. 

And I think what you start to see a lot when you practice is the ways in which you're judging people are a projection of your own judgments. 

You're judging yourself for that. You're too hard on yourself that way. 

I just think maybe that's something that's part of it; we have to actively talk about that because people have some fantasies I think out there about what that entails. And they're also constantly comparing things. 

So for example, I have friends who never meditated who absolutely [00:39:00] get less annoyed I do, they're more patient, they're more calm, all that, but people have this habit of comparing themselves to others instead of comparing themselves to who they were yesterday or a few years ago or whatever it is.

 So I, I think there's, there's gotta be some kind of work with that, which is actively popping projection, 

Chi: I had another thought is I work with a lot of people who have been completely disempowered. And I want people to look to themselves to like help feel more confident. I guess there's different ways in which to help people feel confident, usually my approach is like, you're doing great. You know, it's like giving people this kind of power. Like, oh, I am doing great? 

Or some people are always seeking outside for the answers, so I say, no, you got it. It's all within you. Or something like that. Right? I feel like the psychedelic work really teaches people to point to another person's inner healing intelligence. 

Right? Like, I'm trying not to get people to [00:40:00] look at me. I'm trying to get people to like look within themselves and I feel like the mushrooms help with that. 

So yeah, it's a good question about the projections and I guess because I had been around great meditation teachers, and masters, I don't even want anyone to think of me as one of the , like a meditation teacher, because it's not true in my mind.

So I want them to realize that it's not, I'm not one of those spiritually advanced people.

Adrian: it's interesting, even as someone who, you know, teaches meditation, I would say the exact same thing, like I feel that tension in that paradox, because really it's just about, it. I think you said it very well, it's really inviting people to have a look within themselves, 

And part of that is ultimately, I think you want to embody, the teachings as much as possible, which helps people to look at themselves, 

Chi: Exactly. I feel like it's all about embodying. Yeah, that, you really hit the nail on the head. It's not about hierarchy; it's not about separate individuals, one who is lower, [00:41:00] one who is higher. 

I hear this a lot is, oh, you're so kind or you're so peaceful. And even though I don't feel peaceful sometimes people say that.

So feel like that's I what's most beneficial. If people feel like they can see that in themselves when they're around me. So that's really what I care about. 

You know, sometimes I feel like the greatest teachers, you know, there's some fables out there, Buddhist fables, but sometimes bodhisattvas come in, homeless people's bodies or something like that, right? And monks are known to be like beggars, humble beggars, right? 

Also in our society, there's this kind of thing with fame where it's about like putting someone on this pedestal that no one can touch. And people are so conditioned by that. 

So I feel like my job as a mushroom person is to help people question that kind of perspective. That kind of way of looking at the world. Even in the psychedelic world, there's like mostly these Caucasian doctors, male doctors, that everyone [00:42:00] looks up to. But I want people to know that no, you are just as much of a human as they are. Like they just have been on this journey a little longer. 

But like people give their power away so easily, so quickly, in this world. And it pains me to see that because sooner or later they're gonna have to come into their own power. 

Adrian: Well, those are kind of the high priests of Western society or scientists in some ways, and doctors, and it's like people do put people up on a pedestal, certainly very much in other places. It's a human thing. Right. And we see it within Dharma especially in Tantra, you know, in Vajrayana, you see it in Zen, you see it in Theravada though, one thing I like about theravada, they have this notion of "kalyanamitra". It's more about spiritual friends and less as guru that puts themselves up. 

But it seems like this is a real way that Dharma is adapting to the West. And there's a common theme with the psychedelic scene. It's how to work with power dynamics. I think for me it's acknowledging there's hierarchy sometimes, but it doesn't have the meaning we [00:43:00] attribute it.

There's hierarchy in everything. So if you spend ten years trying to become anything, a chef, a doctor, a writer, a poet, a meditation teacher, you're going to have competency in that area that the 99% percent whatever of other people don't have, who didn't spend their time that way.

And then if we shift to something else and talk about another topic of conversation, then the hierarchy flips. But for some reason, when it comes to religion, it invites this projection even when someone is teaching meditation in a secular way, and I think part of it is just acknowledging, Hey, this is like just what I'm into, just the way you're into science, or physical fitness or engineering or whatever, and that doesn't mean I have all my problems figured out, and you're going to have to look to yourself for that, or you're going to have to look to a therapist for help with trauma or something. That's, part of the way I make sense of it. I don't know how you think about that?

Chi: Yeah. also it might be my own personal biases [00:44:00] for sure coming through, you know, because I'm okay putting Goenka-ji or like Sayadaw U Pandita ona pedestal. Like I know they're like great masters,

Adrian: Right. you 

Chi: Um, 

Adrian: some projection there, I'm sure. 

Chi: Yeah. Oh yeah, un undoubtedly, 

Adrian: Undoubtedly. 

Chi: And also, they're on a pedestal for a reason because they practiced for years and decades and they helped, like they really helped open hearts. So it's, course, for me, I guess it really comes down to values. What do people value? 

I think Western society, people value the brain and this kind of intellectual, analytical understanding, you know, I know this, I know that, right? I heard someone say this, for me, because I resist that kind of intelligence because I've had that kind of intelligence, I go, no, that's not at all the, the most important one at all in this life. 

So when I see people overvaluing the intellect and the brain, when people say, what's the effect of mushrooms on the brain? I go, I don't [00:45:00] know. But it definitely opens your heart and the gut. It's, it's, it's about the body, right?

So yeah, I think there's so many complex, like intergenerational stuff, but our Western society is so head focused. Our whole existence is our head and how we look like up here and what we're thinking. 

But I've been around in other environments where no one's talking about the head at all. It's about the holistic body, sitting, presence 

When I was volunteering at the Goenka-ji Centers, one of his talks for servers is you have to cut off your head, which means you sort of have to become sort of like the body of Christ, which is, it's not about you as an individual, it's about just being the hands and feet. 

The dharma. I mean, multiple issues here, 

just 

some contemplations, I guess. 

Adrian: I like that. 

And Chi, we're coming up on an hour, or so we're wrapping up, but that seems like a great place to end. It sort of seems like so much of the value that you've learned and also I feel I've learned from Dharma, meditation, and psychedelics, [00:46:00] the common point, it's becoming more embodied and it's connecting more to the heart, which I always love about Asian languages is the word for most Asian languages that I know, heart and mind have the same meaning. And they don't think the mind's up here, they actually think it's down here in the heart. So I think that's a great place to leave it. 

And is there anything else you just want to add on that note?

Chi: Yeah, I guess a funny anecdote is a western scientist came to like a group of Tibetan monks and he wanted to study the mind, and so he put all these wires on the head of a monk or something. and the monks all laughed because that's not, they know that that's not what the mind is. So yeah, I think that's a great, great anecdote to end on.

Adrian: Yeah, I think actually it might've been Richie Davidson, and I think he asked why they were laughing. 

They said, why? And they, they laughed. He said, your mind's not up here. And when he asked him the point, they point to their heart, and they said, the mind's here. 

Well, Chi, thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it. And, oh, if people want to find you, where can they find you and, and follow up with any resources you [00:47:00] share? 

Chi: Yeah, mushroomtao.com. So mushroom T-A-O .com or tripsitters.org T-R-I-P-S-I-T-T-E-R-S .ORG. and feel free to reach out anytime. I'm happy to support. 

Adrian: Great. Thanks so much for your time, chi. 

Chi: Cool. Thanks.

Previous
Previous

Integrating the Insight Tradition & Plant Medicine

Next
Next

What Does It Mean to Redesign the Dharma?