What Does It Mean to Redesign the Dharma?
Episode Summary:
Episode 1 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Vincent Horn from Buddhist Geeks. The episode explores progressive perspectives on understanding and adapting Buddhist teachings in the context of contemporary times. Some topics touched upon include The Dharma and its inclusion in the mindfulness movement, cultural differences in its practice and interpretation in different countries, the notion of awakening and how it influences the practice, and the role of Dharma in addressing social issues such as climate change and diversity, equity, and inclusion, and so much more.
Episode Highlights:
01:10 The Concept of Redesigning the Dharma
06:17 The Challenges of Modernity in Dharma
23:11 The Influence of Western Culture on Dharma
37:04 Redefining Meditation and Dharma in the Digital Age
46:02 The Complexity of Ethical Development
01:03:50 The Challenge of Embracing Diversity of Opinion
Guest Bio:
Vince Fakhoury Horn is part of a new generation of teachers, facilitators, & translators bringing dharma to life. A computer engineering dropout turned full-time contemplative, Vince spent his 20s co-founding the ground-breaking Buddhist Geeks podcast, while simultaneously doing a full year, in total, of silent retreat practice. Vincent began teaching in 2010 and has since been authorized in both the Pragmatic Dharma lineage of Kenneth Folk, and by Trudy Goodman, guiding teacher of InsightLA. Vince has been called a “power player of the mindfulness movement” by Wired magazine and was featured in Wired UK’s “Smart List: 50 people who will change the world.” He currently lives in the Blue Ridge Mountains outside of Asheville, North Carolina with his partner Emily Horn and their son Zander.
Full Transcript:
Adrian: Welcome To Redesigning the Dharma, and I'm your host, Adrian Baker. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with one of my teachers, Vince Horn.
Vince is part of a new generation of teachers bringing dharma, meditation, and mindfulness to life in the 21st century. A computer engineering dropout turned full time contemplative, Vince spent his 20s co-founding the groundbreaking Buddhist Geeks podcast while simultaneously doing a full year in total of silent retreat practice.
Vincent began teaching in 2010 and has since been authorized in both the Pragmatic Dharma lineage of Kenneth Folk and by Trudy Goodman, guiding teacher of Inside LA, and Jack Kornfield of Spirit Rock Meditation Center.
Vince has been called a power player of the mindfulness movement by Wired Magazine and was featured in Wired UK's "Smart list: 50 People Who Will Change The [00:01:00] World."
He currently lives in the Blue Ridge mountains outside of Asheville, North Carolina with his partner, Emily Horn and their son Xander.
And here's my conversation with Vince Horn.
Adrian: Well, Vince, thank you very much for making the time to talk on this first episode of Redesigning the Dharma.
Vince: It's exciting. I I love the, the theme.
Adrian: You were absolutely the person who I wanted to have on as my first guest because you're definitely a very integral part of my sort of own exploration into this question, you know, cause I feel like that's been a big part of Buddhist Geeks.
So I guess I'll say a little bit just briefly of what I imagine this concept of Redesigning the Dharma to me, and then I'd love to just sort of throw it over to you and hear your thoughts on it and how it's evolved, you know, so
Sort of the premise for the idea was that the Dharma is something that's never been static or fixed. It's always adapted to whatever culture that it's gone to.
You know, I like Stephen Batchelor's definition of a constantly evolving code of awakening. [00:02:00] And I think that's become apparent for me the more I've studied different facets, different turnings of Buddhism and also even within a particular turning from one culture to the next, you know, it varies a lot. Depending on the particular culture, it has a different flavor and this conversation is certainly very rich right now in the West as it's in its so called fourth turning.
I've also seen ways in Thailand where I could see how it needed to be updated in a place where they were so into tradition and perhaps to really thrive. It needs to be adapted there. And it seems like people are starting to have that conversation.
So I wanted to have this podcast on how we kind of Reimagine what the Dharma could look like or how it is evolving, you know, and I know that's what you've been doing on Buddhist Geeks for some time. So we'd just love to hear what that concept even means to you, of Redesigning the Dharma.
How do you think of that question?
Vince: Well, it's interesting that you're in a the position you are, because you're you're an American practicing probably What would be more considered like [00:03:00] convert forms of Buddhism, but living in Thailand, so you're kind of exposed to the full wide range of like different Buddhist forms.
Not that all of it is there, but you know what I mean? You get an east and west
Adrian: Yeah, for sure.
Vince: together. So that's a really interesting. I hadn't kind of Put that together that that's that's your context. Seems like a great place to be considering these questions.
And yeah, I mean, to that point as well, you know, when I was studying religious studies more broadly, but it basically was Comparative Buddhism at Naropa, we really looked a lot at the process of Buddhism in modern times, transitioning from Asia to America, coming over through a number of different teachers and the ways that Buddhism changed in its early few decades of exposure to American culture for several decades.
And we're well into that project now, you know, I'd say we're a good century or so into that process of Buddhism modernizing and [00:04:00] Americanizing and Westernizing and globalizing.
And recently in, I think, as you know, in the scholarly discourse around this, the term Western Buddhism sort of faded out of prominence and global Buddhism seems to have taken its place. Which is a kind of a recognition of how, like interdependent and interconnected all of these cultural streams now are that it's a little even difficult to talk about East going to West or West to East because like these currents of cultural movements have happened multiple times over the last, you know, a hundred years, like many times and it's speeding up and it's like every day on the internet now.
So to me, when I think about my own background of studying the question, like how has Buddhism evolved which may be another way of talking about Redesigning the Dharma, it looks like it always evolves in response to changing conditions and we're definitely in the midst of some of the biggest change of conditions that human, you know, human beings have ever, at least that we're aware of, you know, that we've ever faced.
So yeah, talk about [00:05:00] Redesigning the Dharma. Like, how could we not?
Yeah. And I like, I want to say I like Steven Bachelor's "Constantly Evolving Code of Awakening." I think that it's a really interesting way of talking about things.
Adrian: Me too. That really resonates. It does center that word evolution, which you picked up on, which I think is a great way to think of it as well.
It also just centers the awakening part and I want to get eventually to the integral approach to Dharma because I do think that's a very rich part of the conversation. It centers the awakening part, the stream of human development, which has been often under ignored in the West. And then when we get super into the project of awakening, we sort of lose sight of other streams of development, because that becomes front and center.
Vince: Right? Yeah, that's true.
Adrian: Yeah, that's like an inevitable phase. I think I certainly went through that.
Vince: Yeah. As an individual practitioner, that makes sense as part of the journey. And, you know, to your point earlier about Redesigning the Dharma, part of what I think about too, is this kind of larger timescales of, have you kind of pointed to it with the phrase, the [00:06:00] fourth turning, which is a reference to the fourth great kind of iteration of the Buddhist tradition and it's evolving code. And so I think of kind of pre modern Buddhisms, modern Buddhisms, and something beyond that, like something that goes beyond modernity.
Whether you want to talk about postmodern or meta modern or integral... There's a lot of different camps that talk about the problems of modernism, but when I think of Redesigning the Dharma, I think about having to work with those problems that we've inherited over the last few hundred years of Buddhism interfacing with modernity.
That's a lot of where it seems like the work. Is happening.
Adrian: Yeah. And can you elaborate on that? Like, what are some of the big themes or problems that really stand out to you, as someone who's situated where you are in the U. S.
Vince: I mean, the big one that no one can ignore at this point is the ecological crisis, climate crisis.
Because no one's left out of that. And we all have to either, justify our, position toward not acting more radically or we just sort of [00:07:00] like trying to figure it out, you know, and we're all doing that. And I think that's one of the main things that I look at is the climate crisis.
But there's a lot more because modernity gave rise to the climate crisis through industrialization. You know, and through pulling up all of these hydrocarbons that were buried and burning them and putting them in the atmosphere. So modernity is the underlying cause of why we're here, but we don't, know how we got here and we don't know how to get out of here, we don't know how to stop this really. I don't think.
Maybe some people do in small scales, right? And maybe humans have known how to live in harmony with nature and in many examples throughout history, but we don't know how to do it at scale in a global integrated way to support several billion people.
So how does everyone get their basic needs met across the world while at the same time centering life and the processes of life that even enable us to do that as part of the larger design-scape.
Because so much of design in the past has been on human [00:08:00] centered design. Like how do we design for people? But now it seems like we're in a shift where we have to be more life centered in our approach, because if we just focus on humans, we seem to unintentionally disrupt the living substrate that we all rest on.
So to me, that's the primary crisis of modernity is the way that we're threatening our own existence and don't seem to know how to stop doing that at the scale.
Adrian: See, this is a really rich example. So I'm glad let's take what you just identified, the ecological crisis and kind of go back and use that as a frame to kind of go back to explore a couple of these other. Issues. So for example, you talked about the, a lot of people don't use the word Western Buddhism.
It's more of a global Buddhism. And I can certainly see that there's the back and forth. So it's, permeable. You know, it's not like it's a clear dichotomy, I see that with yoga as well. But you know...
Vince: Right.
Adrian: So let's, consider like, here's how I see some similarities and differences living in Thailand in the way they relate to it versus say the conversations I hear going on in the West.
Now in the [00:09:00] West, I can see how this is a clear evolution of Dharma that naturally Western practitioners growing up in democratic countries where they have a strong sense of human rights, where they have the ability to participate in the political sphere, naturally saw that sort of, that move towards activism.
And I think, you know, certainly when you realize the sort of truth of the second turning, when it really clicks for you, that the truth of interdependence?
Vince: Right
Adrian: That awakening is inevitably a collective process, that it cannot possibly be your own little spiritual journey...
That's a very natural move to start integrating political activism and for a lot of people, they didn't even have to have that second turning, it's just part of the culture. But I think when I look at Thailand, there's a difference.
The similarity is consumer capitalism does something that's similar everywhere: it erodes [00:10:00] interest in spiritual life and these other concerns. It erodes traditional bonds; people do become more interested in material things. And you see that wherever you are, whatever religion there is.
So that I see is similar in Thailand, but even though actually there's a very, especially in the last year, there's this really rich movement for democracy among the younger generation who are really sort of pushing the envelope, for how Buddhist Thais are, and it's a huge part of the collective identity, I don't see a lot of the language like using the language of the Dharma to sort of frame that struggle.
In that, that could be that it's happening in, Thai, you know, in Thai language sources, and I don't see it though, I have a fair amount of friends who are Thai ,who are very into it and I feel like I would hear about that.
So. I feel like that's one example kind of of the differences in the sort of nuances is how things unfold through culture. And this could potentially be a rich part of it going [00:11:00] back to places like Southeast Asia is, you know, I think people are hungry for that.
It's just that connection isn't clear.
Vince: Right. between Dharma and democracy.
Adrian: Yeah. And of course, that's a very old historical thing. The way that ruling political systems will favor will give patronage to those religious movements that don't challenge their power, right?
Vince: Right.
Adrian: We're happy to support the Zen renunciates who are off in the hills because they're not challenging the status quo or whatever it is.
Vince: Mhmm, mhmm. that makes a lot of sense. And to me, it brings up the question of, you know, Redesigning the Dharma.
So is the reason for that could be multivariate, of course, like why aren't Thais using the language of Dharma in pursuit of democratic reform.
Is it because the language of Dharma isn't really compatible with that or just doesn't have much to say about it? Or is it because they haven't, they haven't made that leap themselves of kind of questioning their tradition and reformulating things such that it could be something that's compatible with [00:12:00] democracy more.
I wonder, you know, it brings up that question.
Adrian: It does bring up those questions and the great ones. And I also want to say, if there's anyone Thai who's listening, who's like, "Hey, you're totally wrong, this is happening." I would love to hear that, you know, I hope it is happening. So please reach out. But my--
My sense of that is, and this is where it gets really interesting.
You know, I think there are challenges in East and West with adapting the teachings. I think, and I'm going to paint in broad brushstrokes, but in a traditional Asian country, there's such a reverence for tradition. And even for those who are questioning, who are willing to question it, then there's issues around social harmony and you're stepping on taboos.
And I think the challenges are number one, it is, tradition, and even though it's ironically a tradition that's premised done in permanence, there are other cultural values at play that religion always interfaces with, and there are other very stabilizing forces in Asian culture that says like, "no, this is the way things are."
Vince: Like confucianism.[00:13:00]
Adrian: Exactly. This is the way things are. And also remember the big thing in, you know, Theravada Buddhism, and actually this is my most recent blog post I just published or I'm about to just publish it today, you know, a challenge I think for early Theravada... I think each, each turning has their own advantages.
I think one reason Theravada has become very popular easily in the West is that unlike say Tibetan Buddhism, it doesn't have all these trappings of religion from a Western perspective. So it can fit with this kind of Western narrative: it's rational, it's scientific, it doesn't have, you know, and I know you've had Eric Braun on your podcast, The Birth of Insight, who's written about this really well.
But I think the challenging part about Theravada is that it is explicitly a monastic tradition.
Vince: Yeah.
Adrian: And that's very clear. That's the answer. There's not a householder path. Obviously people are redefining that and redesigning that in the work, which is great, but I do think that is the challenge [00:14:00] for Theravada practitioners is it's always orienting you in a particular direction.
It's. designed to have a particular end, right? And they're going back towards those early sutras that hasn't changed. And so, that is a challenging part for Western Theravada practitioners. You know, how do you integrate what was clearly not designed to be a householder path into householder life?
And I think for Theravada practitioners in Asia, they haven't taken up that challenge the way that Western practitioners have.
And to be fair, I think this is a nuanced conversation because it's not only Theravada because in Burma, apparently there's quite a strong tradition of lay practitioners.
So there are other variables. In Thailand that really wasn't the case, you know, the way that lay people relate to practice is really through offering merit. And there's very much this attitude of people sort of playfully joke like, "Oh, maybe in my next life, you know, I'll become a monk and and then I'll go for enlightenment."
And there's certainly[00:15:00] Thais who are not monks, who are householders, who are very interested in Dharma, who have sat a meditation retreat. It's a common rite of passage for men to ordain at some point in their life. and I, believe there's a sort of resurgence recently among particularly more educated and affluent ties in meditation, which I think is part of that Dharma coming back.
Vince: This global movement.
Adrian: Yeah, the global, but I would say the percentage of Thais, I mean, I would love to see it, but the percentage of Thais who have a regular seated meditation practice, who viewed Dharma as a contemplative technology that you have to apply, like, I think that's a very, very small percent. You know, a very small percent, I would be surprised if it were more than 10 percent
Vince: Would you describe that as the modernization that I was talking about earlier that that would be like Buddhist modernism, that the folks that are doing it as a contemplative psychology.
Adrian: Exactly. And I've heard a similar phenomenon, for example, in India, I've heard in a lot of ways, people have gotten more into [00:16:00] yoga, as in a narrow definition of yoga, but asana modern postural yoga, because in a lot of ways it got popular in Western places, and then came back to India in that. Yes.
Even though India invented it, it fueled a resurgence of interest in it, right?
Vince: Yeah, that really is the history of Buddhism in a lot of ways. Maybe it's all tradition, like traditions are like this, where they, they spread somewhere and they evolve and adapt in that new ecological niche. And then they can recede the original place where they propagated from. And of course, it can take in a new way because it's changed and become different. Makes sense.
Adrian: It completely makes sense. It completely makes sense.
Vince: So we're in this weird position in America, for instance, you know, we were on the receiving end throughout the 20th century of all the sort of influx of dharma teachers and then eventually books and you know, it became a whole religious network of practice.
And now we're in this weird position of kind of exporting some of the [00:17:00] things that came from that, like mindfulness as an example, that's a global export. And. it's going everywhere. Like, you know, you were part of the mindfulness meditation teacher certification program that Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach put on. My wife, Emily's one of the mentors of the teachers there.
And the growth of that program... it's probably the best mindfulness teacher program, I think out there.
It's crazy how much it's growing. The last few cohorts have been on an exponential growth curve. So, and, and with people training from all over the world.
I mean, yes, centered more in Western countries, but for sure folks in Asia, a lot of folks in Asia who are training to be mindfulness teachers.
So it's like mindfulness is definitely going out into the global marketplace with this current, like you described it, like the global title patterns or whatever. These like kind of shifts over time of ideas moving back and forth.
Adrian: Yeah. And one good example of that is I noticed within Asia, I definitely see that interest in mindfulness and it's the more urban of an area you see in any country in Asia, the more you'll see that, right?[00:18:00]
Because it's a center for global consumer capitalism. It's more cosmopolitan. It's more network. So people in Singapore, tell me how mindfulness is the buzzword a lot of places. And, if you're from Seoul in South Korea, if you're from the bigger cities in China, wherever people are, talking about that, so it's like this cosmopolitan international...
Vince: Weren't you doing some mindfulness teaching in Chiang Mai when you were living there?
Adrian: Yeah, I did some though that's,
Vince: That's not super cosmopolitan, i, I know.
Adrian: Yeah, no, it's interesting. They've got this subset of digital nomads and things like that.
Mm-Hmm. who are there. So that's, there's certainly part of that. But in Chiang Mai, it's, there's genuinely, that's a real hub for people who are into meditation.
Vince: Right. So like retreats and stuff.
Adrian: Yeah. And it's just so in the air in Chiang Mai. There are temples everywhere. It's kind of like the hub, even within Thailand in a lot of ways for those meditation centers.
So Chiang Mai is almost a different example, but you know, in some ways you'll have a conference in Chiang Mai and you'll meet people from like all over Asia, [00:19:00] you know, and so you will hear people who are into this. So yeah, there's certainly truth to that.
It's cool to hear the program's growing so much and I'm, not surprised, you know, it's, it's meeting an important need.
I think the interesting question that I'd love to see, and I stay in touch with people from my cohort, the two in particular from Australia, I'd love to reach out from the other folks from Asia who are sort of sprinkled in Korea and China and elsewhere is to see the extent to which there is kind of engagement with these other questions... of the ecological crisis, for example.
Vince: Yeah. I, I see, you know, in that world, I've, I've kind of got a special view into it because of Emily's engagement. And because I just know a lot of the folks in the mindfulness world and, you know, I know Jack and Tara.
So from where I'm sitting, they're really addressing a lot of multicultural issues right now in their community, I think that's become kind of forefronted...
I would say like interconnected with that is the ecological crisis, but it doesn't seem like it's as [00:20:00] forefronted as currently as social justice and racial, well, again, social justice is hard to talk about without talking about climate.
But of course, people can emphasize certain of these interlocking things. Even if you have a view that they're all connected, you can still emphasize certain things.
So I think social justice and racial justice in particular, it has more of a focus in that community from what I can tell. But of course, mindfulness is much bigger than that particular community of people, you know, basically teaching mindfulness teachers.
So, you know, larger, bigger scale, I think it's not as big a part of the conversation. It's really much more mindfulness as something that's compatible with the modern world and compatible with capitalism, compatible with your work and, you know, bringing it in, having mindfulness meditation breathing rooms, and your, you know, big offices.
Like, yeah, like it's very much kind of being integrated with mainstream global culture.
Adrian: Totally, and I actually think that is, again, another really rich example of kind of like how to view the, by [00:21:00] that, I mean, the diversity, equity, inclusion, racial justice piece, which I definitely would agree with my impression that's forefront in the U.S. and I think it's an interesting example of how, we can view this in a way of like, it is, it is global capitalism.
It is an export. That course, it's an export to other parts of the world, right? That was made in America. And I think there's an interesting creed.
Vince: Mindfulness made in America.
Adrian: But here's the interesting thing is, it's the racial justice, diversity, equity, inclusion piece, I think it's a wonderful example of how people are taking the Dharma and they're applying it in a way that's relevant for a particular context.
And when I look at the conversation, you can view even within America, like the way that conversation unfolds at Spirit Rock in the Bay Area, even to its sister organization, IMS, there's a different tone in some of the statements I feel I've read about particular things, and that's totally logical because these are different subcultures, [00:22:00] right?
And on a larger scale how i've seen that play out is, this was very forefront because Trump had gotten elected, at the beginning of our training and on the one hand, it made total sense in terms of adapting it, on the other hand, I think the challenge is how you, if the program is global, how you kind of include those other voices.
I think some people for Europe probably found it really relevant and resonating with some conversations over there. But again, it's very different... racism in Europe, right? Because they have a different history of it.
I looked around and I talked to other people from Asia. I knew just from living in Asia before they said anything, I was like, these people are confused. Like, you know, unless you're Asian American, like, the, the vocabulary, the things people are talking about, the way Americans talk about these things, it's very different.
And so I think there's this Interesting tension that's like, "wonderful, you've readapted it... and the challenge for Americans, even very progressive Americans, I think, is they're not [00:23:00] always cognizant of the extent to which they are reflective of the American bubble.
Vince: Sure, sure.
Adrian: And there's going to be a challenge when that goes back somewhere else.
Vince: Yeah, right, right. So that's, that's right. So it's like we're exporting everything, including our unconscious, ethnic, and national biases. So we take like our situation here trying to adapt to that, and then that's what gets exported to places where the situation is different.
And then, and then that's now, now you've got to bootleg that, you know, and remix it. So it works. Right.
Adrian: Yes. Yeah.
Vince: Or be aware of the ways in which the mind's already gotten locked down in this idea of, as the mind tends to do, okay, like this is how it should be.
Adrian: Yeah, this is what justice looks like or Dharma looks like or...
Vince: Yes, something you said too about, like, this is the Dharma you know, moving and adapting...
To me, I would kind of also make some verbal distinctions here between Dharma, meditation, and mindfulness. And I know you [00:24:00] saw like a little slide I shared recently on this. I think it's useful to kind of distinguish, like to me, mindfulness isn't strictly speaking Dharma.
Adrian: Yeah.
Vince: I can see a case being made for it and Jon Kabat Zinn, one of the most important popularizers of mindfulness, actually at many quoted places does say this, that he thinks mindfulness is Dharma.
But I think what he's pointing to is kind of the sort of more of centralized truth aspect of what mindfulness practice can reveal that Dharma is also interested in, but to me, it's a very modern narrative because, you know, in a way we're sort of assuming there's something that's separable from our concepts and in our sense making, you know, and we can talk about that thing, which is beyond our conceptual, it's like, okay, how do we talk about it though?
You know what is this essential truth? That's true no matter how the exterior form of it changes and what is it that makes it true? If you're changing a Redesigning Dharma, at what point is it no longer Dharma? Dharma is, [00:25:00] I mean, truth is the translation of Dharma that I use the most. At what point is it no longer true?
You know, if you say, okay, let me, the first noble truth isn't life contains suffering or Dukkha. The first noble truth is life is whatever I want it to be.
Is that still Dharma? Right,
Adrian: Right, right.
Vince: So there's some point at which, yeah, we have to like, at what point is dharma no longer dharma? I think to me that the core template of dharma is this focus on the eight fold path, the three trainings, you know, training and morality or ethics in concentration or meditation and an insight or wisdom. those are the kind of three core patterns. Like, if you're doing those three things together, you're doing a Dharma, you're on a Dharma path.
And to me, it's like, mindfulness practitioners aren't necessarily engaging with ethical or moral questions, nor do they see the practice in a liberatory context. I'd say most practitioners don't.
Adrian: Sorry to jump in. I just think you nailed it. Yeah. I think that last one is the key [00:26:00] is the goal.
The goal is not explicitly liberation, which is why we're doing this. I mean, I do like the term awakening.
Vince: Yes, I think awakening is a good translation.
Adrian: I do. Yeah. And I think in perhaps this can be the pivot to the integral Dharma part, but, you know, I found for me, the training with Jack and Tara, which I would highly recommend to anyone who wants to do a mindfulness teacher training, it was wonderful, and it was the right thing for me to do at that time.
And I think my big takeaway from that was it made me realize that what I really was interested in was Dharma, not secular mindfulness. And I think I started to realize this more from doing more formal retreat in a Buddhist context, but I'd started to realize that the teachings, it's not just meditation as a technique that liberates you. That's very clear from the teachings, right? It is applying all of these teachings, including the ethical framework, and really putting awakening front and center of [00:27:00] the goal.
And that is definitely a difference between secular mindfulness and Dharma. And I think the way Ken Wilber talks about it is a really nice way to kind of just bring it down from this lofty ideal to a more grounded place to say, you know what, there are many streams of human development, and this is just one stream of human development.
Vince: I think that awakening can be understood as one stream of human development, like kind of like a spiritual intelligence or something.
Adrian: Yes.
Vince: But I think the Dharmic path can be seen as more than just one stream of human development too. It can be understood as like a way of life that touches on its own kind of integrative approach in a way, but I think it depends on what you mean by awakening, I guess.
Adrian: Yeah. I mean, that could be,
Vince: That's something Ken does. He does make that distinction. He talks about the difference between horizontal and vertical enlightenment in his book, Integral Spirituality.
And I like that distinction where horizontal enlightenment is what we normally think of [00:28:00] as awakening: it's what you're describing, I think of like that line of development where you push your meditation practice and you push your contemplation of reality to the point where you have these deep transformative insights into the nature of who you are and what this is.
Yay. You've awoken. Yes. And then what we're waking to doesn't change anything about conditional reality, really. Fundamentally, right?
Especially outside of your own perception of it. So, you know, there's this broader way of viewing awakening that covers a lot more territory and this is where I think Ken Wilber's theories and his description of the fourth turning of Buddhism is really, apropos because he's, you know, more or less trying to point out the things that have traditionally been left out of the spiritual path and say, Hey, we have to account for these things as well. If, we really want to consider what we're doing, a comprehensive or inclusive path.
Adrian: Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot.
Vince: So do you want to go with that?
Adrian: Could you actually sketch that out a little bit more?
Vince: Yeah, so Ken would probably spend an hour sketching this out. So if you want the full [00:29:00] sketch, you know, you can look this up plenty of places online where he sketches this out in great detail, but the short version is he, talks about these different, sometimes we think of them as the different ups
The different ways you can wake up, yes, but also grow up, clean up, and show up. And then he's added another one recently called opening up.
So there really are these five domains that he points out. Waking up is the one we're talking about, you know, that's one of the ways that you can do this that you can grow, you know, so you wake up.
But then growing up is considered different because it's, more about human development and our capacity to make sense of the world. And it's been a long standing observation that a lot of very spiritual people who are quite awake and share really brilliant teachings and writings and are innovative and creative and groundbreaking can also simultaneously have really ethnocentric views, and be misogynistic, or patriarchal, or be like hyper [00:30:00] egomaniac asking their close students to do things that are completely inappropriate in any normal social context and not taking responsibility for the impact of their actions. Like this is very common.
So it's like, you can see that both of those things can be true at the same time, that must mean that these are somewhat independent forms of intelligence, You know, Ken just comes to the natural conclusion.
Someone can be very mature in terms of their quality of making sense of the world, but not be very awake. Vice versa, someone can be very awake, but not be very complex in their thinking. Someone can be very awake and have a lot of, a lot of unprocessed psychological stuff they need to clean up.
Now that's the third one, you know, cleaning up means taking care of your psychological stuff, in a more of a, Western psychological sense of like owning the dissociated parts of yourself and stop projecting and transferring them onto the world.
And then showing up has to do with being fully who you are, a unique, expression of your deep self, your unique self in the world. Actually showing up and giving what only you can [00:31:00] give.
And then opening up seems to refer to the recognition that you said, like we have these different types of intelligence, different, multiple kinds of intelligence. that once we start to deepen in certain of these intelligences, It's weird, right? Because some parts of us are very open and very developed and mature and other parts are like less so.
And so opening up refers to opening up the depth of what's possible in our different intelligences. From the things that we're strong at to the things that we struggle with, or that are like our Achilles heels. It's like opening up that intelligence to be more inclusive.
So those are the things that Ken talks about, like for him, a fourth turning would include at least those five explicitly in its path of how it addresses each of these and make space for them discriminates between them.
Instead of, what often happens is, they get collapsed into each other. Where someone thinks that by waking up, they're going to solve their psychological problems and they're going to be the most mature person on earth, you know and the truth is far from that. And then by waking up, they're [00:32:00] going to somehow find themselves living the perfect life where they're doing their dream job.
It's like, no. You're not going to be a perfect person who's doing your dream job that's perfectly psychologically healthy and is super mature because you had some experience, you know, of your breath rising and passing
Adrian: Or even beyond that, like, even the fact, and of course, there's different language for different practices and paths, but even if you can always really drop back, let's say, into awareness into the ground of being and understand that whatever you're experiencing is really just another expression of the ground of consciousness and not become identified with it. Like that's a major shift that's going to change your life. But it's not dealing with the contents of consciousness, like that's the whole point of it.
And when you have to act in the world, ultimately, you're going to have to deal with those contents, right? Because they reflect your unconscious. They reflect the stories that you believe in and the values they have and those priorities. I mean, [00:33:00] this is great. You're bringing this up. I think this is so clearly connected to this larger question that we started at the beginning of the show, which is, what's this mean to redesign the Dharma? And I think it's expanding it beyond awakening. Right. It's expanding it beyond awakening. And like you said, the Dharma is a path, it's an ethical framework that can serve in other ways to guide your whole life.
And I think the West has added a lot of value in this respect in terms of integrating psychology.
Vince: Okay, see, cause that's...
You're getting to me at one of the central problems of redesigning the Dharma, which is, you know, so far how the Dharma has been redesigned.
It's followed this trajectory of modernism of modernization. So meditation got unbundled from Dharma first. You know, that was one of the first things that got kind of de linked from the traditional package of ethics, meditation and wisdom altogether as three interlocking trainings.
Meditation kind of became central and the other ones got de-emphasized a s Buddhism modernized and I'd say the insight [00:34:00] meditation community is a prime example of this.
And this is the community that I practice and trained in that you've done a lot of practice and training in and one that gave birth to the mindfulness movement.
So it's an important cultural case study, because you know, when I went there, there was Buddhist elements for sure. And we talked about this, you know, a little bit online, we went back and forth, but they emphasize meditation and, you can be of a different religious tradition.
And was often hailed as something very positive in those communities that you can come from a different religious background and learn these techniques and still experience the liberation that was pointed to without having to buy into the entire religious framework.
And to me, that's a modernist move that decouples the original traditional metaphysics and the traditional goals of Dharma, retranslates them to make them more palatable in a context where there's people from a diverse array of different backgrounds and faiths.
And that's the initial move. And then mindfulness comes out of that. It's a further unbundling of meditation. It's like one way of meditating and [00:35:00] a particular kind of idea that's central in Buddhism, that's kind of completely then taken out of that context again.
And now it can become integrated with a bunch of other things. That's cool. That's part of redesigning the Dharma, is following that trend of the atomization of the different elements of traditional Dharma. And then the reconfiguration of those elements with other things. But to me, there's another move that we can make.
Instead of like, okay, how do I combine mindfulness with something new or how do I bring meditation into yet a new context or create a new way of meditating? It's like, okay, how can we recon ceive of the original framework of Dharma? Of ethics, meditation and wisdom together? Those trainings and say, okay, like, maybe we don't have to keep the original bundles intact.
We can't even... they are already unbundled. But how could we reconceive of them now, given the access we have to so many different practices, different fields of knowledge. You know, maybe what are the things that we're missing in these traditional dharmas, which we started to talk about. And could we actually bring [00:36:00] those into our training and ethics, meditation, wisdom?
To me, that's another direction that I'm personally more interested in with Redesigning The Dharma. There is an integrity of the original model of the three trainings . That if you, honor the integrity of that and have that be the basis, I think it can create like a nice meta structure that you can build workable Dharmas out of.
Adrian: I like that. Can you, can you, because clearly you've given the matter a lot of thought. Like, can you sort of elaborate on that a bit more and just sort of sketch out what you think that could look like?
Vince: I mean, the only example, well, I, there's a lot of examples if you look around to see how people are in different communities and practitioners and teachers are trying to do this.
The best example I have is of Buddhist Geeks, you know, which is the project that I'm most involved in doing this. And, for us, if you look at ethics, meditation, and wisdom, like we've reconsidered what these things look like and how to practice them as a community in a variety of ways.
So like, I'll take meditation. That's in some ways, the most easy to talk about because [00:37:00] it's so obvious. But with meditation, we've really focused on social meditation. Reconceiving meditation as something that you do individually, by yourself, in silence, to something that you do out loud, together, with other people.
And it's a shift in thinking about who we. Are we in these individuals on an individual journey of meditation or are we nodes of the human network that's embedded in this larger biological ecosystem and we're made up by all of that. And that meditation is kind of a practice of learning how it is, like figuring out how that really works, that interdependence.
To me, that's one way of translating dharma. This part of the Dharmic package, meditation training. For this time and age, for the internet age and with respect to ethics you know, we live in the digital world, so everything that we share through Buddhist Geeks, like teaching material, or recordings, or talks, or books or whatever, any kind of artifacts that come out of our activities that we want to share [00:38:00] back with the world we share those with the creative commons, open source style license, a free cultural work is what it's called.
And that means anyone can modify, adapt or remix it. There's essentially permissionless innovation with all the material we create, anyone can take it and use it and that to me is an updating of the ethics of how we operate.
That's part of the change or the evolution of ethics in the digital age. Make things open, make it so that people don't have to ask permission to like use what you've developed. I think that's really valuable because it lets us collectively respond more quickly to the broad scale global challenges we face.
If people don't have to like go pay $10,000 to get certified, to use your techniques, they could just do it.
Adrian: Absolutely.
And
Vince: I see this.
Adrian: Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Vince: No, I could go on, but like, those are examples to me of how we're thinking about how ethics meditation and wisdom, how we need to think about those things differently for the time that we're in.
And a lot of that it's mediated by the internet. And how the internet has changed pretty much every [00:39:00] aspect of life, self, whatever
Adrian: Media. Yeah. Completely.
As you were talking, it brought up a couple other examples where I see this happening in a really rich way. And I think this is, again, it points back to the strength of the Dharma, which is, it is, I mean, first of all, religion is never separate from culture, any religion.
I think any religious studies 101 class would emphasize that. I think it's particularly, this is the strength of Dharma is that there's an essence there. It's so easy to adapt. It doesn't lend itself as easy to dogma. I'm not saying there isn't dogma in Buddhism at all, but it's less prone to it for a number of reasons, and I think, for example, with ethics, the fact that it's deliberately very open, the essence is really on non harming. And so it leaves it very open to interpretation.
So, for example, you hear this debate going on right now, even not just from a modern to a pre modern versions of buddhism, but within the West, you will [00:40:00] hear people debating even within the same community about the fifth precept and our psychedelics and intoxicant that's not appropriate or no, actually,
Vince: I'm so tired of that one. Yeah, but, but you're right. That is one of the debate.
Adrian: And I throw it out there because honestly, you and I are immersed in it, but many people aren't really aware of it.
Yeah, I think in Asia, like, for example, my friends in Thailand, you know, that's not a heated debate,
Vince: They're pro shrooms there, I imagine.
Adrian: Very, very and sexuality is another one. You know, it's the essence is on non harming and that's very open to interpretation, but again, attitudes towards sexuality and like what is appropriate or not appropriate. Of course, it's a very individual matter, but general norms around that vary a great deal by culture. So it makes a lot of sense that different cultures within a country and between countries are going to have to interpret that in different ways.
But I think we could all agree on the essence of that being on non harming is just a really great foundation that then gives practitioners [00:41:00] freedom to adapt it in a culturally appropriate way.
Vince: Yeah, that makes sense to me. And at the same time, there's a kind of attention that comes up for me in this conversation between the personal and collective levels of this or views on this.
Because what kind of you're describing in a way is like a personal approach to ethics, like your personal morality and adapting it into your culture. And that makes sense to me
Adrian: Or the way the groups flush that out.
Vince: Yeah. and groups will flush that out. Yeah. In different ways.
So one of the tensions that can come up though is like, okay, so we have this sort of this personal liberatory ethics, and it's great. It leads to some profound freedom and we want to share that. And it's good. And it's, you know, it's appropriately adapted to the culture. You know, we have normal language to use.
You know, we can see actually that the language we've used for, for a long time has this wisdom already embedded in it. It's like this wisdom transcends culture too in some ways you know, but it always takes the form of a particular [00:42:00] cultural expression. But the rub for me in that personal liberative ethics, is like, you know, take the early Buddhist culture as an example of this.
They had that. And they completely dropped out of their society in order to pursue that. They actually had to make this kind of move of dropping out of society of the caste system in India, in order to make this liberative move and then teach this profound radical path of, individual liberation.
But, you know, we're in a situation now where we see that we participate without even intentionally doing so just by living how everyone else lives. We participate in these systems of harm, and we're all murderers, you know, even the fucking vegans are murderers. And, you know, it's like everyone participates in these things without knowing it from the moment you're born.
And that level of collective harm that's happening at a level that it can go invisible for many people if they don't know how to look at or see systems. And to me, that [00:43:00] creates a tension potentially between different levels of ethical development.
You know, there's the level that can only see things in terms of personal. And then there's a level that can hold the systemic too, and that's different. Cause then you're like, "Oh wait, being a Buddhist practitioner also means I have to look at how I live and how I participate in these global systems of extraction, you know, actually, Whoa, holy fuck."
That's not going to be how it gets adapted right in Thailand I imagine. Like, that's not going to be the conversation anytime soon. I would guess.
I could be wrong. Maybe it is.
Adrian: No, no, I mean, it's, I
Vince: mean, I shouldn't put you on the spot to speak for the Thais, but
Adrian: No, no, no, no, I don't think you put me on the spot. I think it goes back to what I said at the beginning. I feel like there's a really rich opportunity to apply this in Thailand, but...
Are there plenty of individuals doing this? Yes, but on a collective level, for example, the level of consciousness around things like, or [00:44:00] worker rights, you know, what's happening in the supply chain of products we buy, like to say nothing of how Dharma is getting applied to help us think about these things, there's just a very, very low level of awareness around that.
And I think there are multiple reasons for that. I think part of the reason the awareness is more elevated in the West is they're much further into the journey of capitalism, right?
Vince: So they've been thinking about this thing. Yeah.
Adrian: Yeah, I just think because capitalism in the West has now been happening for well, over a century, they're in a much more developed, mature phase of it, where they're seeing a lot of the problems, right?
Vince: Right.
Adrian: And there are different problems that come at different stages of development. So, in Thailand, it's still very much, and in a lot of Asia, the pollution in the air is horrific.
Like, I mean, as you need to be thinking about carbon, but like, it's
Vince: Right.
Adrian: if the air you were breathing in was so toxic, [00:45:00] your attention would be a lot more focused on that than it would be on carbon.
It doesn't mean you can't think about both, but it's, there's a more, the mind is designed to handle more immediate threats, right?
Vince: Right, right, right. Totally. That's true. But it's easier to develop that capacity to notice and respond to immediate threats than it is to these larger abstract threats that are more serious, actually, but, less immediate.
Adrian: Yeah. So I would say that's part of it. You know, there's something to be said about being at different stages of capitalism and different problems, but there are multiple things: it's part of the education system, it's part of the rule of law, it's...
Vince: Right.
Adrian: You know, it's the culture. People aren't used to questioning authority in a really basic way. The government has control over the education system that deliberately obscures which they should question.
Vince: Adrian, I do think just for the super philosophical nerdy people who are listening to this and wait a second, are you saying that people in the West in like and more developed [00:46:00] countries are more developed than people who aren't?
And I think in a way, yes, we're saying that, but to me, it's held within a context that recognizes that again, there are multiple lines of development. And just because someone is really developed cognitively or like you have a culture of people who have a really good education system, lots of opportunities to do that so they do, you know, that doesn't mean that we've got all of our shit together.
I mean, look at America, Jesus, like brilliance and scary ass shit. Every day I think about my son going to school, like, are there going to be guns, you know? And like, what is going on here? Why are we so dysfunctional?
And yet we're so developed also. Well, yeah, just because you're developed in some ways doesn't mean you're integrated and doesn't mean you're like you know, have grounded your, your insights.
So to me, I don't see it as like, we're inherently better that we, that we have an awareness of like how we're fucking up the ecology.
It's like, no, we're still struggling to figure out how to even coexist in America with our neighbors and our family members right [00:47:00] now. We've barely got that shit together and we're simultaneously aware of this, some of us, not everyone, but it's like, you know, it's complex, I guess, is all I'm trying to say.
don't want our conversation to come across as the simplistic notion of like, we're more developed and no, it's not, it's not that simplistic colonialist bullshit. It's much more complicated than that. But there is a gap in awareness between some cultures, communities, and others in terms of these larger global issues.
And to me, it was like, yeah, redesigning the Dharma, all the question of how to do that has to take into account the audience. Who is it being redesigned for? And if people aren't thinking globally yet or at systems levels, the only reason to include that, would be as a way to help prompt someone's development.
And actually Ken Wilber's work does point to this, you know, "Integral Spirituality" which I mentioned, he talks about religion as having the potential to serve as a great conveyor belt for development that actually you could imagine entering into a religious structure or system and there being an [00:48:00] intentional design built in of actually bringing you through and dumping you off at the right place instead of just like leaving you hanging, you know, completely disillusioned.
It's like, oh no, actually, you can find another version of Buddhism that actually fits where you are now. And that helps you kind of continue to grow and evolve as a person.
I like that idea. I don't know how to operationalize that, but it's an interesting concept. We, we try to do that to some degree with Buddhist Geeks.
You know, seeing that our, audience isn't just one group of people, it's multiple people with different ways of looking and different backgrounds.
Adrian: So you said a few great things there, Vince. I really appreciate, first of all, the way you pointed that out and wanted to draw that potential issue.
What we're not saying, to anyone in our audience, you know, and I think on my end, the most obvious piece of evidence for the fact, I certainly don't think it's better in the West is I choose to live in Thailand.
Vince: You're not, you're not an exile.
Adrian: No, there's a reason I choose to live there. And it's interesting to even think that it's almost in some ways, like it's something that people in the [00:49:00] West might assume maybe because they equate things like technological material progress with like overall, this is better.
But That's just one facet of it. Like clearly people in all parts of the world yearn for that material and technological progress, it's clear, right? Other people do want that.
Vince: Yes.
Adrian: Right. That's obvious.
Vince: It's obvious to those people. Sometimes it's not obvious to people in America, like in, in really like developed places, they don't actually realize that or somehow, I don't know, it gets overlooked.
Adrian: It does, it definitely does, you know, and I mean, there's things about material progress... it's easy to dismiss it on macro level, but it's also on a practical level in terms of economic development, it's sending your kid to a better school, it's better healthcare for your kids, better water. It's really foundational stuff.
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like everything around like your life and, and like how well you're able to live and how safely you're able to, to do that.
Adrian: Totally. And you know what? Like, yeah, you like watching things on like a nice big TV screen on Netflix. Like it turns out when other people get a taste of [00:50:00] that, they like it too. You know, and there's nothing wrong with it like in moderation with enjoying those benefits.
But I want to point out another example of something you said, where we're talking in some ways about different levels of psychological development.
And this is tricky. And I know I heard a good Rebel Wisdom podcast where they talked about this recently. The challenges of talking about integral theory where it can be sounding like you're talking like a higher level than someone else and I do think that's a challenge. That's not the goal. Let me let me give it all really practical way.
As an educator, you know, I think, for example, the way you were sensitive to that comment and you picked it up and I wasn't so aware of it talking about it is because you live in the United States and I live in Thailand.
And in the United States, people are going to potentially jump on you really quickly for that comment, whereas in Thailand, people would not. And if someone did jump on me from Thailand, it would probably be an American or a British person who is visiting Thailand, [00:51:00] and why is that?
You know, well, there are a number of cultural reasons for that, like how you communicate, are you confrontational versus not like they're different variables, but the calling out of ethnocentrism. The critique of that, for example, the critique of American history books as promoting this sort of imperialist or colonialist, like the debates people are having in America about this stuff, I used to teach history in a K-12 context just for people are...
Vince: Okay.
Adrian: I can't even begin to tell you how far beyond other countries that is right? Like way before you get to like 1619 project, just having a critique, which people were doing in America, I mean, certainly by the sixties, probably before that of like, "Oh, what are history textbook teaching? They're teaching this kind of patriotic, you know, I'm thinking of like Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States," they're teaching people just to sort of fall into this dominant paradigm [00:52:00] as part of this dominant culture. They're not questioning imperialism.
That conversation that was happening at least 70 years ago, like that's not even close to happening now in Thailand, so people could say and will say very ethnocentric things in a public space, public leaders will do it, and they won't be called out for it.
And they won't be called out for it because I think people don't really see that, you know, like the blaming of immigrants, for example, as part of the problem, like that's the classic textbook move wherever you are.
You know, I think the fact that people are very sensitive to that in America is an example of how developed America is in terms of sense of human rights and in terms of a
Vince: I agree
Adrian: ethos that roots people in a world centrism, that doesn't exist really in Asia.
Vince: I mean, it's tenuous here.
Adrian: Yeah, but at least, the fact that people... The tricky thing about America is I think people [00:53:00] rightly point out this big gap between their ideals and reality, but it's because America kind of sets the bar very high.
In other countries, if you'd be like, well, you're discriminating, you're not treating all people equally, they'd be like, yeah, because like Japanese has made Japan's for Japanese people, Thailand's for Thai people, you know, I mean, like it just, you couldn't, you couldn't fall back on that world centric move.
Vince: Right. It's not an assumption that all people are created equal, like there's not that fundamental kind of assumption built into the culture and the governance.
Adrian: No, and they're just, there's so many different things around like the way practically speaking, like libel laws are written where basically if you wrote something that was like critical of a corporation, the corporation could sue you and they use that law to imprison journalists in Thailand, as an example.
Vince: Right.
Adrian: I mean, so again, just back to the theme of redesigning the Dharma, like how these conversations happen, it has to happen in a way where we're recognizing, and I've heard you say this a lot with the [00:54:00] culture wars in the U S which I think is so helpful, we have to recognize that different people are at different levels of development and have compassion around that.
Compassion is a condescension. And it's also open to what we don't know as well. But truly different people are at different levels of development and it's not something to feel a sense of superiority over because if you truly get the teaching of no self and how things arise and come together, you would understand that any development you had was not due to some special independent self. It was literally just a matter of causes and conditions. You happen to be born in a particular country, to a particular set of parents, to a particular set of socioeconomic circumstances, et cetera, et cetera,
Vince: Right, and then you have your own innate drive, and I think unique self, and all of the things that you bring.
I think we bring stuff to the table independent of those conditions somehow as well. Maybe this is my more traditional Buddhist side coming out.
But I think, you know, every person is [00:55:00] unique and they bring something to the table as well that kind of like, it disrupts the causes and conditions that they inherit and thank goodness in some cases,
Adrian: Yeah, I totally echo that sentiment and I also think, again, that's a little part of how it gets adapted with different cultures.
Like In a Western culture where we prize individualism, we are a little more inclined to leave more room for the individual expression, right?
And it's a little less about perhaps conforming to a particular ideal. Right. This is what it means to look like a Buddha, an awakened person, fill in the blank.
Vince: Yeah. Which is great in some ways, cause we're creating more of a culture of autonomy and agency where people can kind of feel like it's theirs, you know, they can own it.
That what the Dharma is, is theirs, you know, and I, I like that. And of course that gets taken too far... way too far, but yeah.
It does afford for some interesting things, doesn't it? The focus on individualism. And I spend a lot of time critiquing it because I spend a lot of time in [00:56:00] groups of people where the assumptions of modernism and rational individualism are sort of predominating, but you're right, depending on the context, these critiques can just be tone deaf, or context deaf, if you're dealing with like you said, a culture where it doesn't have a sort of solid foundation of world centrism as the basis of the country. And frankly, that's still pretty rare.
It's still pretty freaking rare.
Adrian: Oh, it's very rare.
Vince: Yeah. It's very rare. Yeah. And we've taken it for granted, I think, in America for a number of decades now so we're kind of feeling that the crisis of democracy, you know, which is one of the other things I think redesigning Dharma has to like democratic countries, you know, people redesigning Dharma.
How do we not take into account the crisis of democracy? We use holacracy at Buddhist geeks, which is kind of in some ways a small response to the failing of democracy. It's like, well, maybe there are better ways of organizing at scale.
Maybe there are other ways we can make decisions that are smarter and more [00:57:00] adaptive to changing conditions.
You know, at our like business scale. I don't know about the global scale, or the national scales. I still think self governance is better than authoritarianism, personally. But you know, how do you actually have a functional self government? Like our democracy here is not super functional by a lot of measures. It's flawed, technically.
Adrian: Yeah, and I think to say the least, but. it's still, again, it really depends what you're comparing it to.
I mean, there are so many problems and of course those problems in some ways are even on greater display when you're on outside of the country, but there are all the things you take for granted too.
I mean, you could also say the past four years showed the remarkable strength of the rule of law.
Vince: There are some ways, yeah.
Adrian: The strength of the rule of law in the United States, for example, is, a major, major asset that people do take for granted. And if you go to a developed country where there's widespread corruption and a weak rule of law, you will very quickly become cognizant of the difference between a country that has rules on the books, but they're just there in theory, and it depends how they [00:58:00] get applied versus like, no, you were speeding and it doesn't matter actually that you have a job at a, at a nice bank or whatever. Like you're, you're still going to have to pay the ticket.
You know, yes, different rules are applied differently, I'm not saying that everyone's treated equally under the law, but it's all relative. The difference in terms of how that happened is really extreme versus other countries. But I want to come back to the point on the redesigning the Dharma theme that you mentioned about holacracy, because I think it's another wonderful example of how culture has to contend with how to apply the Dharma.
So in the West and in America in particular, cause there's a lot of variation within Western countries. I mean, European countries, there's a great amount of diversity there. You know, America particular is a very it's very anti hierarchical, it's very skeptical of authority.
And so I think this is a really important thing to contend with for a lot of Dharma practitioners, you know, and it looks different depending on what kind of Dharma you're practicing [00:59:00] but I think the whole notion of practicing Dharma, but not having someone who's up on the pedestal in this authority figure is extremely unconventional in the larger history of Buddhism.
I mean, that's a very, very recent phenomenon, and it's not a surprise that it came in the West. In Asia, still today, in somewhere like Theravada Buddhism, where you don't have the guru. I mean, monks are very much revered and they're very much other, you know, you're very conscious of a monk is on public transportation, you do not touch them... like so they're very much up on a pedestal and I think this is
Vince: Don't touch the monks.
Adrian: Don't touch them. Don't make contact with them. You know, women aren't even supposed to be in the presence of them in certain contexts
Vince: alone. You want to be alone with a monk?
Adrian: Certainly not alone. And there's certain temples women can't go into, but I think it's really cool the way you're piloting holacracy. Maybe you can define that for people who aren't familiar with that term.
Vince: Yeah, it's holacracy was developed by a software engineer [01:00:00] named Brian Robertson and he essentially was running into a lot of the classic problems at his software development company that most organizations do, which is like, how do you run this essentially this autocracy?
It's like yeah, we're so anti authoritarian as Americans, but like corporations are autocracies. Board run autocracies. And so, there are all kinds of challenges that come up with top down command and control style organizations and that's kind of the default, unless you're like really kind of cutting edge organizational theory, you know, it's like the default is like, okay, I'm the boss, I tell people what to do, we have these, different job positions, we hire for them and we've got HR.
You know, there's this whole kind of system for modern organizational governance. And Brian knew just as we later knew that there's got to be a better way of organizing and making decisions together and harnessing the intelligence of the group.
Because the problem with autocracy always is that the person or people at the top will always be missing some really important viewpoints [01:01:00] and perspectives that really need to be integrated in order for the larger whole to be healthy and to evolve.
So holacracy is a organizational system and set of practices for how to do things together as an organization, and also how to decide how we do things together, which is governance.
And uses a process called integrative decision making in order to take tensions that anyone in the organization senses through the roles they're holding and be able to surface those tensions such that they're integrated back into the very structure of the organization, like how our policies, our roles, the accountabilities these different roles hold, you know, the, the big picture kind of things of how we do what we do.
And so in that sense, holacracy is a really interesting model for a sort of self evolving organization. And yeah, for us, that is a lot more appealing. It's a consent based model versus a consensus based model. That was appealing to us because we saw a lot of alternative organizations as I'm sure many have, who've spent [01:02:00] time in nonprofit sector or like progressive communities where people try to flatten the hierarchies, and everyone has to agree to make a decision together. It takes forever to make a decision.
Sometimes the organization will dissolve and die before the decision's able to be made. So, you know, consent based decision making is just saying, are there any objections to this, this idea? Like, can we try this? And if, no one says, Hey, that's going to actually cause harm right now, if we do that, then you can move forward with it. It's consent based. It's like no objection. Okay, let's do it.
So to me, holacracy is playing with a different set of assumptions about human beings and what they're capable of. Maybe different developmental assumptions, maybe this holacracy is really for people who already are able to be autonomous, I think. And who can make decisions for themselves.
It's just a new way of operating. And for us and what we're doing, it's really interesting. I wouldn't say like everyone needs to be doing holacracy though, because it does take a lot of like conceptual investment and education in order to even get the basics of why we'd want to do things differently.
You [01:03:00] know, why would you want to be able to integrate objections from everybody who's holding roles in the organization? Like some people don't wouldn't just to even get that. Why would you want to let the janitor, you know, make decisions that affect the company?
Adrian: Vince, I just want to be told what to do. I mean,
Vince: Right. Some people do can't come up with that ,
but some people do. I mean, I'm
joking, but No, I know. You're right.
Adrian: But, but, but some people do, you know? Yeah, it's true. Just part of the challenge.
Hey, I'm conscious of your time, but I'd love to ask you sort of one final question if you got a few more minutes.
Vince: Do it.
Adrian: Okay, cool. Whether it's on an organizational level, or we're talking about the level of culture, but something that you said several minutes ago made me think of this and it's part of the challenge that I see now in America, it's how we're having these conversations compassionately, challenging conversations compassionately, recognizing that people are at different levels of development.
And I think, how do we have conversations where, and I think I was thinking this sort of the U S versus Europe in different places where our valuing [01:04:00] of diversity truly embraces people who have a diversity of perspective? Because one thing I see right now from an outside perspective of the U.S. And again, I mean, I'm, I'm making sense of myself also as an American, you know, cause I am American, that form I can do,
Vince: And you spent some time in some, like you've spent extended periods of time in America since you, since you moved to,
Adrian: Yeah, that's true as well. So it's not like I've been cut off and I listen to a fair amount of American media and politics and culture so it's just trying to stay in touch but, it seems like people are valuing diversity, but not valuing diversity of opinion.
And from a Dharmic perspective is how do we stay in the conversation with people compassionately, but also with discernment and with respect of boundaries in our own position just have a different view of us.
And I want to say, from some sort of larger perspective, not everyone is going to be down for this. We can't have a rational conversation with everyone.
So I think it's thinking about what are the norms of having a [01:05:00] conversation, but not really pushing back against the current trend of what the media is doing to us in terms of fragmenting us into these different silos of information where we're only consuming media, from people who agree with us and then we're just constantly judging or shaming everyone else who just has a different opinion of us.
I think part of this has to come with just actively expanding the definition of diversity to really embrace diversity of difference and perspective. And I think also this is where Dharma has a lot of value to add. Integral theory has value to add with the different perspectives of development and Dharma with coming back to some very basic principles.
I really want to call out and give credit to Thais. I think Thai people collectively are really wonderful about modeling this kindness of speech, gentleness of speech, you know, and compassion for different perspectives.
So I'm wondering cause I've heard you talk about this, how you are sort of [01:06:00] thinking about these challenges and practically having these conversations and trying to push things in a different way within the Buddhist Geeks community with conversations you're having online.
Vince: Yeah. And I think for me, the conversation about diversity you know, we talked about diversity, equity, inclusion, these things that come together, accessibility, these, all these things are part of the larger, postmodern, pluralistic, conversation, you know, of how Dharma and this sort of sentiment are coming together.
And post modernity is very much aware of and critiquing modernity, and looking at the power structures and hierarchies and Patriot, you know, like the history of these things.
And it's like, Oh yeah, like you were saying earlier about the, you know, the untold history of the United States. It's like, Oh yeah, this is the untold history of modernity.
And when I situate it in that framework, I can understand that it's really a great thing that our traditions are evolving to the point where we're starting to include difference as being something we want to intentionally, make space for. [01:07:00] And because that's hard to do actually make space for difference...
Difference is exciting, but it's also creates a lot of tension and it can create ruptures of cohesion. And so to me, it's a very sensitive topic. And what I can relate to is with the diversity initiatives that I see playing out, it's the desire to include more. To include different perspectives and more ideas and points of view that are being left out of the conversation and community.
And what would it look like if we actually were able to include those points of view? How would that transform what our communities look like? And what they focus on, what they value, how they practice together... how they frame the goals of the practice, et cetera.
I mean, all of these things, change and transform as the Dharma is redesigned.
What you're saying is true. There's something. Going on in postmodern Dharma that feeds into the culture war in ways that I think are probably unhelpful. And I would say I've done this as well, you know, myself participated in it, which is how I know about it.
And so, for me, what I would say to [01:08:00] progressives like myself is like, we've got to just own the moral superiority of your fucking viewpoints, which means acknowledging development. I think if we do that, then there's a lot less contradiction in, in the sort of moral superiority that we're taking as a community.
It's like, actually, you know, we're holding views that are quite complex. We're holding systems level views along with individual views. And like, we're seeing that these two are separate levels that don't necessarily, you know, everything is not happening on the individual level. It's not up to everyone what their life becomes like, you know, we've grown up past that.
And yet, we don't really know how to make space yet. I think for people at previous stages of development. That really is the problem. So we end up alienating them by just being morally righteous jerks and by doing a lot of the same things we're critical of.
You know, being extremely ethnocentric in a lot of ways, if that makes sense. And, being in-groupish. You know, it's like, Oh, we're the people that know you should tolerate everyone. You all are just imbeciles.
Adrian: Right.
Vince: Yeah, how to work [01:09:00] with that tendency while also recognizing that we do need to include more, to have more just and fair systems. Otherwise, the person whose perspective doesn't get surfaced... the tension doesn't get acknowledged or recognized or integrated into the structure of society, for those people, they're living in hell. they're literally living in hell.
I think part of the anger that fuels some of the culture war is rooted in a very just anger, like, this is not okay. It's not okay that's so many people are being trampled by the systems that we've constructed. It's not cool, but a lot of people aren't aware of it. Like you said, what's happening with the 1619 project is so far ahead of the discourse that's happening in a lot of countries.
So we have to find some way to include the people we disagree with enough and support them enough that they can grow and develop and actually have the chance to see things with a broader view so that they can come around to seeing what we see. How do we do that? I think that's a really hard question.
I don't [01:10:00] know, but I can see a lot of examples like you're pointing out of ways that's not working. Yeah, that's right. That's where I'd have to leave it though.
Adrian: Yeah, I mean. I think it's a good place to leave it. I mean, certainly opens it up to a whole nother conversation on that topic, but even just what you said right there, I hope that message gets out to people.
Just enough to give people pause, cause I'll say I've experienced that coming back and including in Dharma communities where I thought, right, you know, I've been out of this bubble for a while, so I can see things a little more vividly and I often shared, I think people's, maybe not, I don't want to pretend we had the totally same perspective or agenda, but I shared their quote unquote, largely on the same team, but I thought maybe people's tactics, the way they were going about it, could be counterproductive.
Vince: Right, right. And sometimes when people say that, they just using that as an excuse to not investigate their own part in what's being criticized, you know, and, so I think it's, tricky. It's tricky because there should be some amount of pushback and some amount of challenge that comes from progressive communities.
Adrian: [01:11:00] Agreed.
Vince: But when you're pushing against the wrong people or in the wrong way or offering a challenge that isn't going to be able to be met, that's where it seems like to be counterproductive.
And I think a lot of that is a blind spot around development and taking for granted a lot of things that we've talked about. It's like a lot of the most noxious woke perspectives that I see are coming from people who are extraordinarily privileged, you know, insulated in a tiny little micro hyper progressive bubble. And they're coming out of that with these really beautiful ideals and views, and they're just so far from reality that it's obnoxious. It's annoying. And it's like, you know, pragmatism is important people! You know, we've got to be pragmatic.
Adrian: I would say it's a form of ethnocentrism and it's very much something that I've noticed where people are concentrated in particular areas, like the Bay area or something like that. On that note, there's someone who wrote a book for the culture wars, John McWhorter, who's a professor of linguistics, African American professor who also writes for the New York Times, and he [01:12:00] wrote this book, "Woke Racism," and he was very clear. He's like, I'm writing this for white people. These are for woke white people." And he sort of went on to basically make a lot of the same points that you just made.
Vince: I mean, it's not hard to see it if you look around in my corner,
Adrian: It's not if you're outside of the bubble. It's not if you're outside of the bubble, like any bubble.
But Vince, thank you so much for your time. This was a really fun and rich and it was the freewheeling conversation that I hoped it would be.
Vince: Well, welcome to episode one. It's only going to get weirder from here.
Adrian: God, I hope so. Thank you so much, man, I really appreciate it.
Vince: Yeah. My pleasure.
Adrian: All right. We'll be in touch.