Integrating Awakening Part 1
Episode Summary:
Episode 5 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation Ryan Oelke from Buddhist Geeks. In the first part of this two-part conversation, Adrian and Ryan talk about their personal experiences with Buddhism, specifically the practice of Dharma and the Vajrayana and Dzogchen traditions. They discuss their journeys becoming practitioners and teachers, and the impact of certain teachings and figures like Ken Wilber and Namkhai Norbu. This episode then dives into the importance of experimenting with different traditions, maintaining an open mind, and navigating the relationship with one's primary spiritual teacher or "Root Guru".
Episode Highlights:
00:10 Introduction
00:13 Updates from Ryan Oelke: Teaching Dharma Privately and Leadership Coaching
05:16 The Contrast Between Different Buddhist Traditions
21:55 The Impact of Namkhai Norbu's Teachings
28:23 Finding a Style and Tradition that Suits You
37:26 The Balance of Discipline and Playfulness
Guest Bio:
Ryan is an Executive Coach at Stagen, an Integral Leadership Academy based in Dallas, Texas; co-founder and teacher at Buddhist Geeks; and a Senior Teacher in Judith Blackstone’s Realization Process. He has an MSEd in counseling psychology and 20+ years experience in meditation, particularly in the Tibetan Buddhist and Dzogchen lineages.
Ryan teaches an integral path of embodied, responsive presence and invites others into the mystery of their own lived experience and embodiment. His approach is grounded in the foundation of waking up, and includes cleaning up (healing), growing up, and showing up in the world.
He also has a BA in Spanish, 3 years of graduate study of classical Tibetan and translation, and is a passionate learner and teacher of languages.
Full Transcript
Adrian: I'm Adrian Baker and this is Redesigning the Dharma. Today I'm speaking with Ryan Oelke. Ryan is the lead teacher and translator of Awakening in Life and the co-founder of Buddhist Geeks.
He is a Buddhist Geeks teacher and is a certified teacher in Judith Blackstone's realization process. Ryan also has an MSED in Counseling Psychology and over 18 years experience in meditation, particularly in the Tibetan Buddhist and Dzogchen lineages.
Ryan teaches an integral path of embodied responsive presence and invites others into the mystery of their own lived experience and embodiment. His approach is grounded in the foundation of waking up and includes cleaning up, healing, growing up, and showing up in the world.
He also has a BA in Spanish, three years of graduate study of Classical Tibetan and Translation, and is a [00:01:00] passionate learner and teacher of languages.
This is a two part conversation, and in the first episode, Ryan and I speak about our personal experiences with Buddhism, the practice of Dharma, and Vajrayana, and Dzogchen in particular.
We discuss our journeys of becoming practitioners and teachers, and the impact of certain teachings and figures like Ken Wilber and Namkhai Norber Rinpoche.
The episode also discusses the importance of experimenting with different traditions, maintaining an open mind, and navigating the relationship with one's primary spiritual teacher or root guru. And here's my conversation with Ryan.
So, before we dive into your background, if you could just contextualize a little bit for the audience, briefly describe what is it that you do?
Ryan: In recent years, I've been focused on teaching Dharma pretty much in different capacities. So, doing a lot of 10 week trainings, which we kind of came across a nice model at Buddhist Geeks, especially Vince Horn and Emily Horn designing those 10 week trainings.
And during the pandemic, a lot of people were at home working, but also with flexibility or not working. So a lot of those, but also a lot of private [00:02:00] sessions.
I'm now moving in actually into evolving context where I'm going to be focused more on leadership coaching, executive coaching, things like that, where very much integrates an integral background. And I'm sitting with the question of how to bring in, the wisdom and the experiences I've had from Dzogchen into this kind of context explicitly.
And I think the environment's opening up in general across culture; I mean, we see meditation now being embraced by everybody. It seems like everybody meditates just like everybody does yoga. But, you know, it's opening up the funnel there, I think, for more and more depth, presence, and working with awareness.
So, yeah, I'm still teaching Dharma mainly through private sessions, though, these days. I like the private sessions quite a lot because it's much more organic and responsive to what's going on in a person's life.
We need that foundation of structured teachings and practices, but there's no way around it if we can't adapt it and integrate it into our life. Then, I don't know, what are we doing, basically, would be my question.
Adrian: Yeah, I'd love to hear you say more about that, because I can really resonate with that. There's something about me, at least at this point, I'm very much drawn to one on one as opposed to groups. And I'm [00:03:00] curious, because you've really done quite a lot of both, and what is it that over time has drawn you more and more to the one on ones?
Ryan: So I still do like group settings that a range of 10, 15, 20 people. There's something special there because there's a stronger feeling of practicing as a "we. That happens for sure in the relational space of one on one, but obviously there's a different degree of intimacy in both settings.
But I found that the 10 week trainings, the strength is that it provides people with, again, a strong foundation. You can get classic, you know, get a view, get some core teachings, get some practices, making sure it's very practice focused. And so you have more in your toolbox. You got a map, you got ways to orient, you got things to work with.
So I think that sets people up really well. And that's still a great way to practice and learn together. And so I enjoy that, but I. Partly there's the amount of people who are doing that, shrunk a little bit because so many people did it during the pandemic. So I think there was this influx across life, not just inside of meditation and awakening, but [00:04:00] everybody shifted a little bit. It was like, okay, we were doing something for like, whatever, two years. And now people want something a little different when you got done.
But the private one on one space I've grown to love how the relationship unfolds over time. When I first started teaching privately, I treated it more as an a la carte kind of thing, and partly that was just me finding my seat as a teacher.
So, you know, I was like, Hey, you know, I'm going to, not gonna be too bold here. I'm here and available if people need help and also finding my own confidence. But what I found over time is that it's hard to get traction, and transformation, and awakening and have teachings and practices really work us over unless there's some consistency over time.
But in the context of a real relationship through ups and downs of life, twist and turns. And so that's been quite nice. So I've got to work with some people, for a few years now and starting to really see how that evolution happens over time in real time and yeah...
I think we can relax into it a little bit more. of us, you know, in that context, teacher and student, but you just relax and say, what is this practice actually about? Why the hell are we practicing? [00:05:00] What is this for? How does it matter in life?
It helps to also break down, I think, ideals and certain obstacles that are hard to do because everybody, it depends on where somebody's at, right? So we can use stage models. So if somebody is gunning for enlightenment, so to speak, and they're in those first couple stages, well, then it's just like, yeah, excitement and give somebody a practice and coach them along, right?
But at some point to progress, to awaken deeper. You just have to let go. You have to let go of practice in a certain way or what you expect out of practice. What we hope for the disappointment from anything that we had hoped for. And when that starts happening, then it can really permeate more easily into life and life can be brought into practice.
So I think that happens much more easily in a deep intimate relationship that happens over time.
Adrian: And that's, of course, that's the tradition, especially where we're coming from in Vajrayana. Certainly the case in Zen too, you know, but it's, it's how you learn anything. It's kind of the apprenticeship model.
Ryan: Yeah, well, you have a good point about the flavor and style of awakening, especially in Dzogchen.
I'll give a perfect example. So Lama Lena is someone who I really love as a teacher, [00:06:00] and she does lots of teaching online through YouTube, lots of live streams, so I always recommend her. If you go to her YouTube channel and look at live streams, she's teaching all the time.
But I had a student who did one of her retreats, and I've done some in person stuff with Lama Lena, but I haven't done one of those retreats, so I was just curious. And he said that you get together once, she gives you like the general practice, then there's just a lot of Q& A.
And then she's like, okay, now go practice, you know, you're committing to a certain amount of practice in the midst of your life. And then you swing back around and you get to ask her all the questions you have. And that's it.
So you heard the word retreat, right? And if you come from, say, Insight tradition, I mean, really not just Insight tradition, the plain Tibetan Buddhist tradition, you know, like the month long in the winter at Shambhala and just a dot tune,
Adrian: Or even I've seen like Pema Chödrön think it's like a two month.
Ryan: Yeah. But those things, it's like we're going to be. Yeah, we're going to be in practice every day. There's gonna be structure all day long. Here we go. So somebody coming in with that mentality into this thing inside of a retreat, and then that's what you're getting? Personally, it's great. I think if you come up with that expectation, [00:07:00] that's going to be a shock that is a teaching.
Cause it's like I'm grasping, I want a lot more, but that's the informality of it. And Dzogchen is, I think probably the most informal from what I've experienced in Tibetan Buddhism. The practices are... plenty of practices, plenty of things you can do, but they get stripped down quite a bit.
So that's always resonated with me. I'm much more intuitive. I'm much more loosey goose and I, and I like to go where the path takes me, which is interesting because in Tibetan Buddhism, sometimes it's Gargantuan Olympic path set before us.
You know, it's like you start with Ngöndro and you're going to go do hundreds and thousands of everything. And then you're going to do this, this, this, this, this, then you're going to get the boomies. And you know, it's just like, holy moly. And so it can be kind of prescriptive in that sense. And so when I found Dzogchen personally, I found it when Namkhai Norbu taught it, how I experienced Lama Lena, it was kind of like, do what you need to do. Work with your experience where you are. There's nothing else.
Adrian: Completely, and for people who might not know what Dzogchen is, it's a particular stream within tibetan Buddhism, more associated with the Nyingma tradition. And then you have Mahamudra, [00:08:00] associated with Karma Kagyu. That's, that's fundamentally similar.
And I think just the way to explain it for people who wouldn't know, it's just moving from kind of form to the formless, which we can see across different meditative traditions. And it's sort of when you learn anything, right, you need to learn forms at first and discipline and effort and technique. and then the more and more over time you let go.
But the difference is, I mean, in many traditions including Vajrayana, you don't let go. I mean, you keep doing those forms. And that's why Dzogchen is really in many ways, if you look at the actual practice, I often feel I have more in common with a Zen practitioner than with other streams of Vajrayana who are doing very elaborate sadhanas.
Ryan: I haven't got to hang out with a ton of Zen practitioners, but that was always the vibe I got too. I'm like, okay, like similar languages. I don't know, Spanish and Portuguese. It's kind oh, it's different, but it feels Something interesting for me having taught a while and trying to figure out how to articulate a style like Dzogchen in this modern context where mindfulness is [00:09:00] dominant-- it's a default term, for what meditation is even, just it's mindfulness.
But everybody who's been in a tradition long enough knows that there's differences there. And so similarly, it's like a different language. And in the Tibetan tradition, Dzogchen is placed kind of at the end, the pinnacle when it's presented as a linear model.
But how Namkhai Norbu taught it was not taught like that. He did present it like say, hey, this is how it's traditionally presented and this would be how it would progress, but it was not taught like that, and so the shorthand that I've given to this and how I experienced Dzogchen is start with the end and work backwards.
So direct introduction to the nature of mind, your your true nature. You do that first, you get that taste, you start with that. And then you see, can I just rest as awareness itself or no? And then I feel into my experience, what is it that I need to work with? Where are the obstacles and what would be the right practice for that?
So it's not prescriptive, but it also embraces form as needed. So it's responsive in that sense. Throwing in also awareness style practice. So, borrowing from the Buddhist geeks model of six ways to meditate. Awareness is one style of meditating. I think it's important, even though [00:10:00] it's my flavor and my style, and I happen to like it quite a lot.
There can be a mistake for people who come from a non dual background and an awareness background to put it at the top, like that's the best way to meditate. No, I need all six ways to meditate. It just so happens that my home base is in awareness and mindfulness does become useful and we use mindfulness in Dzogchen, but it's kind of secondary. It's like, okay, I'm going to use that as needed.
But also there's practices for integrating into life. The four chokshyaks is one of my favorite teachings of like, however the body is, that's the position for practice. However your state of mind is, that's the state of mind for practice.
So then it opens up. It's like, oh, okay, so wherever I go, however my body is, that's the practice. This is awareness. So anyways, that's my further unpacKeng of what Dzogchen and how I kind of essentialize it, you know, simplify it, in this mindfulness, dominant context that we find ourselves in.
Adrian: I like that. Let's go back a little bit to... how did you get into Vajrayana in the first place, and how did you come across Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche?
Ryan: Let's see, I was like 20, I think so about 25 years ago. I found Buddhism just organically. I [00:11:00] lived in St. Joseph, Missouri, north of K.C., where I'm at right now. You know, small town at that time. Okay, you gotta remember it was the hell year. Is it, was it 1999, 98, something like that? And I don't know, it was 99 or 2000, something like that.
Alright, so meditation wasn't all the rage. I mean, you're a weirdo back in that day, if you're into meditation, especially in the Midwest and in a small town. So that was my context. I didn't have any exposure to anybody except for one guy in my music program who talked about some meditation and Ken Wilber, things...
Adrian: Especially Tibetan Buddhism.
Ryan: Yeah, especially Tibetan Buddhism, but somehow I, I don't know what the first book was, but I remember the Dalai Lama's book, "The Art of Happiness" was at our bookstore.
And I remember being drawn to it just naturally. So in some ways I would say if we are inclined to embracing past lives and rebirth as is done in Tibetan Buddhism, and as I tend to think is just how it is, there's definitely that strong feeling of like there was nobody talKeng me into this at all.
I just was like drawn to it. So I picked up that book. I really loved it in the context of my life. Coming from the suffering path, you know, a doorway... Was just like trauma and suffering and everything in life and this beautiful [00:12:00] path that addressed the suffering, but offered so much hope and joy. And Dalai Lama, that's his superpower. It's just joy. Right?
So I thought, wow, this is a different way of being. I picked up a few other books, but then I ended up finding out that there was a Tibetan Buddhist center in Kansas City. Called the Rime Center. They're no longer at that location unfortunately, it was in like this great old Catholic church. And so it had a great great vibe to it. You walked a big stair.
Yeah. It is a contrast, but it worked so well because you just walked to these big staircases. So you ascended, you know, into the center and it was just a big open space and there was really beautiful and I felt at home immediately.
So, there was no trying out, that was it. Love at first sight. kind of funny to think about because of how strange it is in the context of our culture, all the Tonka's, you know, all this stuff. The whole vibe inside, inside the, all the Buddhist lineages, I mean, Tibetan Buddhism is the most forwardly ornate, out front flamboyant there's no hiding it. But I loved it. I was just like, this is great.
And so because it was Rime Center, Rime means non sectarian and non sectarian within Tibetan [00:13:00] Buddhist tradition. So the four lineages of Tibetan Buddhism came through that center. So different teachers, I got exposed to different teachers.
In that sense, I got to do a little trying out of different teachers. And for sure Lama Lena and her teacher, Wangdor Rinpoche came through one time and he did pointing out instructions and. it's pivotal in my life and mind blowing on multiple levels. One, it was the first time that I had point out and out instructions where I got it and I was like, I just can remember the moment and how everything felt in the Rime Center.
It was, it was amazing. But Lama Lina, translating in real time! Which if people are listening to this and they've never seen translation happen, have to understand how difficult and amazing that is, especially in this kind of context. But it was like no gaps, like
Adrian: Sorry, just to clarify, you said translation, did you mean transmission or translation?
Ryan: Lama Lena was translating...
Adrian: Oh, she was translating for,
Ryan: for Wangdor Rinpoche for, pointing out instructions. And there was just no gap, no noise in that signal. It was seamless. So both those experiences at the same time blew me away because I'm a lover of [00:14:00] languages, and translation.
Now, what was interesting is I don't know when that happened. I remember how striKeng it was for me. But, you know, Wangdor Rinpoche came through, Lama Lina came through, and then they left. So the internet was around, you know, but it was not like this. So it wasn't like, oh, let me follow up and hang out more with Wangdor Rinpoche. Actually, I think if he had just been based in Kansas City, I totally would have. But I think it was just like, okay, well, he's off. And now I'm going to keep on doing what I'm doing.
So, yeah, I got to go to all kinds of, empowerments and teachings there. It was great. But fast forward. At some point, it's been like two or three years, I definitely got exposed to Ken Wilber and I always tell this story.
I had that guy in undergrad tell me about Ken. I didn't really know anything. I just remember the name. But then there was this other dude who would show up to the Rime Center. He went to like K State or Kansas Union, and he kept telling me about Ken Wilber. So and SES came out in '99 that's one of Ken's biggest books, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality for Integral and it came out in 1999. So that was just like the onset of Integral Theory Integral Dharma.
So I guess it was pretty fresh for some people who knew about him, but he kept telling me to read Ken Wilber. I didn't know the guy, but he [00:15:00] was really hopped up about it. And when there was a silent retreat, at that time, I was very Buddhist-y. I wasn't like razor shaving my head, but I was, you know, I was embodying the whole persona and I would abide by silence, you
Adrian: Some monk like, some monk
Ryan: Very monk-like... as much as I could within my life of being an undergrad and doing classes and stuff like I was definitely monk-ing it up.
He comes up in the middle of this retreat opens Ken Wilber's book and plops it in front of me and like literally like points. He's just like, slammin' the book, read it! And I was irritated. I was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? And, but I was like, okay, whatever, I'll read this fucking page. And I read it and I liked it actually. I was like, all right, you got me.
I don't even remember what I read. I think it was out of The Simple Feeling of B eing or the Essential Ken Wilber, I don't remember, one of those things. But I was interested. I was intrigued.
I'd mentioned that because it was through Ken that I heard about Namkhai Norbu and there's two things that happened for me. Ken, one presents and has always presented awakening as very real, very pragmatic, very [00:16:00] extraordinary, but down to earth.
So I also tell a story that like I remember when I got into Ken Wilber's community. I got like an email forward of pointing out instructions. He gave that's one thing. He does really well Normally, he's just all philosophy and kind of frameworks and he doesn't do teaching but when he drops out pointing out instructions They're pretty damn good. They gave pointing out instructions written to somebody and then he was like now I'll just go have a beer.
So you got to think I was this monk-like Buddhist practitioner, practicing a little bit in the Gelug style, which has a very different vibe than Dzogchen.
Adrian: Yeah, can you explain that a little for folks who don't know.
Ryan: Yeah, Gelug, so I was doing Lamrim. Yeah. sorry.
And it's been a while since I practiced Lamrim, but there are all these stages that you go through and there's... Dzogchen is kinda like, just go for it, jump in the pool, and Lamrim is like, we're going to get you fucking prepped.
We're going to go through all the protocols, you're going to go through everything one step at a time, and you're going to do it very thoroughly. And, for me at that time, I, my impression was like, waking is going to take you a long time, probably multiple lifetimes, just strap in. But I, there's a lot of good in there, it's just not my vibe.
Adrian: And if I could just bookmark that for people, that's a larger tension in [00:17:00] Dharma for people who are newer. That debate between how scholastic it is versus the more yogi, direct experience, emphasis on meditation. We really see that even beyond Vajrayana.
Ryan: Totally. And just to say something about that, I got a Master's in counseling psychology and then I went to Naropa, which was a dream, to be in Boulder and go to Naropa. And I did three years of the Indo Tibetan Buddhist program, did all the Tibetan language, even taught a year of the Tibetan.
And I, I did drop out though. I did three years, I already did a Master's and then I did three years, and it's expensive and other things happen. I went through a divorce. I got to produce a cool TV show. It was a whole pivot point for me in my life.
Ryan: But I remember sitting in my Madhyamaka class. So Madhyamaka, again maybe you'll unpack it better than me, but Madhyamaka is like kind of the pinnacle of Mahayana, especially from a view standpoint, a teaching standpoint, it just like negates everything that we can try to find. Any substance and, just emptiness everywhere and Nargajuna's was it Four Negations or is it eight? I can't remember.
Adrian: I've forgotten as well. I never got super into Madhyamaka. [00:18:00] I studied it a bit, but I just naturally came to the direct experience more.
Ryan: Well, yeah, so you're similar to me, that's my experience.
So when I was in there, I'm just like, this sucks. Like for me, not, not the teachings are bad. Just like, this is not my vibe. I can't get down with this. But I did recognize that moment. I'm like, listen, some people, this is what works.
Getting into that kind of Madhyamaka intellectually powerful path. That's what works for them to then open them up into emptiness. But it's not me.
Adrian: Yeah. I think Bob Thurman's a great example of that. And he's someone who helped me to appreciate it.
Ryan: Yeah, totally. So exactly. So I totally appreciate it and even more so now I've matured over time and that moment it was more reactive, but I still, even in that moment, I was like, listen, I know this is going to be good for some people, but this isn't, I can't do it.
I dropped out for many other reasons, but I remember that was another moment where I was just like, I don't think I'm going to finish the class. And that was a tough one because I loved completing my classes and getting my A's, but I fully left it.
Anyways, so going back around, to finding Ken and then Namkhan Norbu. Having been very kind of [00:19:00] monk like, really full blown Buddhist dude, a Gelug kind of path of like it's going to be a long path to get to awakening versus like right now in this moment, then finding Ken saying no, waKeng up is totally, absolutely doable in this moment. And it's done through so many different traditions as well. And we have the benefit, the wisdom of all these different traditions to help us wake up in different ways. It just felt very real, especially again. I gave that silly example of him telling somebody to go drink a beer because that just cuts through. It's like, wait a minute. I've been intentionally not drinking alcohol. I was a vegetarian I was doing everything like doing renunciation. Heh, no, I guess I could never
Adrian: that's, a tough one in your early twenties. Yeah.
Ryan: you, you, you got me. I did not go that far. That's funny, man. Somebody, if somebody, I don't think I ever had that pointed out to me in my twenties of that contradiction within that renunciate kind of vibe.
Adrian: Well, because the most, the most powerful and difficult one, like it wasn't even conceivable that you would entertain that.
Ryan: I, I never once thought of it now that you're asking me, like, it [00:20:00] never crossed my mind.
I felt like, no, no, no, no, buddy. That one stayed
Adrian: Yeah.
Ryan: I don't even know what I would have said at that time as my reasoning. I'm sure I would have rationalized it somehow. yeah, no, everything else though.
Adrian: Had to ask. I didn't know how far
Ryan: It gets a good one. That's a great question. I love that you asked cause I never thought about It actually, literally until you, asked me.
So I had that shift and that was a, heart twisting recognition. I remember being in a dorm room in the summer, I was working on campus and reading through Ken and just having this deep sense that I had to change how I was practicing. Do a hard pivot.
There was like grief almost in it. It wasn't like excitement. Like there was excitement when I first found Ken, like, ooh, I highlighted the shit out of A Theory of Everything. But in that moment I was like, I need to switch this up. I can't keep going down this way practicing. I need to go this direction. And so there's a sense of loss. It was like a sense of breaking up, with some somebody I'd loved and saying like, Oh, it doesn't work.
Adrian: Death and birth.
Ryan: Yeah. So it was very honest switch.
And then I saw [00:21:00] that he mentioned Namkhai Norbu at that time, I don't remember, I probably had already had that experience with Wangdor Rinpoche, I might have already picked up self liberation through seeing with naked awareness, which is one of my favorite texts. It's from Padmasambhava, from Nyingma and Dzogchen, and it's from the cycle of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's how to practice and wake up in this life immediately.
And I remember picKeng up that book at the Rime Center, and then I remember reading it in college out bench, looking up at the sky and that zapping me just through this book.
So there's these different callings to Dzogchen. I saw Namkhai Norbu. At that time, I looked for where there were little communities. And again, I don't remember how this happened because the internet, it wasn't awesome at that time. So I don't even know how I found it, but I found there was in Chicago, a community.
And so I drove from basically Kansas City up to Chicago just to go do a transmission. So at that time, Don Brenner was doing VCR transmission. So he would transmit where he was at in the world. Everybody would have their videotapes of him giving a transmission. And everybody would play press play at the exact same time. So then his live transmission would happen at the exact moment of the, of the video. So he's like,
Adrian: belief there that [00:22:00] is worth unpacking at some point. Yeah.
Ryan: Totally.
Adrian: Yeah.
Ryan: Totally. There's a whole bunch there of like, why is that needed? Also funny though, that the context of Tibetan tradition, that was innovative.
Adrian: Oh yeah.
Ryan: Pushing the edge.
Outside of that and taking a bigger perspective, like Redesigning the Dharma, like you just said, have some questions about the beliefs that get into that, which I think are fair to ask. That's what I did. I went up there, drove all the way up there, hung out with that crowd, and that was wild, man, because, again, being vegetarian and not drinking everything.
Along with that, they did the Ganapuja, and the Ganapuja in Dzogche n, a non carnivorous community, is like a gathering, it's a bunch of practicing, but there's a feast that's happening during the practice and then a party afterwards, essentially. But in the Ganapuja, everybody brings food and you're supposed to take something from everything. So everything is included. It's a teaching. It's a practice, but then through the food, but there has to be meat and there has to be alcohol. And so, and I didn't know that when I showed up. Yeah.
I don't remember if I actually ate any meat or drank at that one because I was like a little bit in shock cause I didn't expect it. But that was another shift, like not even an integral perspective or, [00:23:00] taking the tradition as an object. It was just, even in that tradition, that was just shocking and in a good way
Adrian: Yeah. It's a more left handed tantra, but a classical kind of left handed tantra.
Ryan: Totally, totally, I just hadn't been exposed to it up until that point. Yeah, but I dug the vibe and just kept going with it and eventually just went all in and I really loved how Namkhai Norbu taught. It was very practical, very responsive, the poetic language... Just everything. To this day, I still love many of the teachings. I'll just pick them up and they're just great out of the box. So yeah, that was a definitely highlights of how I found my way there.
Adrian: Can I linger on that for a second? Cause you said you love language and I found that there's a deep connection between contemplative traditions and art, I think for a lot of people, you can really teach meditation as a science, and that's really beautiful. For me, I really feel it's more of an art, not trying to grasp at anything.
And so I'm curious, could you say a little more about how Namkhai Norbu used language in a way that really moved you?
What did you learn from him as a practitioner [00:24:00] and a teacher?
Ryan: That's a great question. So I got to attend multiple teachings with him or streams, live streams, in person live streams. But then also a lot of his writing.
So essentially what would happen is a lot of the text that you can get were transcribed from live teachings he gave. Now, he has a few really great books that were published in the sense of trying to be a published, written book. But even those share something in common with all the other books in that how conversational they are. When I read them, I feel as if. It's just like what you and I are doing here. There's a deep informality to it that... it's very warm. Also inspiring again, in that sense of like, this is real. this is who I am. This is who we are and practice just makes us, helps us to recognize that more easily and integrate it. So that's one of the standout, I think, things that Namkhan Norbu did.
Now, he spoke English as a second language we're going to put his fluency on one of the scales. So I, I tend to like the European language fluency scale, there's six levels. Top one would be like [00:25:00] perfectly fluent. Next one down is like, you're really, really functional, but you still make some mistakes. I think he was kind of like that fifth level or maybe even fourth level. So his English wasn't perfect, but it didn't matter. It was totally good enough. But in that sense, I wonder how much of his poetic nature got to come fully through in his English. But I'll give you an example of something amazing. He had a path, a structured path that he created if people wanted to take it up called the Santi Maha Sangha.
And there was a base level, which I did most of that, and then there were like these other levels, and it gets more olympic, because it's so general. The first level, for the base level in my opinion, is incredibly thorough. A person does all that you got to move through several stages awakening, but that text had an even shorter poetic texts and what happens is in the teaching, it's amazing.
Ryan: So they're like stanzas, four lines each. But what happens is because of the Tibetan language, because Tibetan language is more fluid and intuitive. And there's a lot of implication [00:26:00] inside of all the syllables and everything. There's a line of four and each line starts with the same word. Next stanza, a new word starts each of the four, but at the end, all of those single words end up becoming this masterful poem at the end.
Adrian: Hmm.
Ryan: You got to think about how to do that in language. To write several stanzas where you're using the same word over and over for each, you know, one stanza, two stanza, and then that becomes this amazing poem at the end.
It comes across in English, like the beauty of it and the essentializing, it's not overly conceptual. Madhyamaka's on one end the Santi Maha Sangha poem is on the other end.
Adrian: Right. Which is what Dzogchen's about, breaking things down to the essence,
Ryan: Yeah.
Adrian: to the essence.
Ryan: literally being poetic. You know, and how it's pointed to. And, and being playful. I find that what's so genuine in general, whether it's Namkhai Norbu or Lama Lena or Padmasambhava or Longchenpa, you know, from way back in the day, you'll find playfulness. So I [00:27:00] love that. I think that's important.
This is where like we take a more integral perspective and say, what does every lineage and tradition have to offer? I think that's what Dzogchen has to offer inside the Buddhist context is the playfulness of being alive and of awakening. So Namkhai Norbu did that wonderfully.
Adrian: That's beautiful. I really resonate that. I feel like when I look at the few teachers that had the biggest impact on me, I would, say Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Sally Kempton, who was Shaiva Shakta Tantra, and Adyashanti. In particular, I would say Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Sally just really emphasize playfulness.
And that's something that I just really try to highlight for people.
You know, I think that's one of the most important things in meditation practice, you know, and I, I view that as it's really, it's part of the way it gets filtered through Tibetan culture and I'm sure other Himalayan cultures, Nepali culture, Bhutanese culture as well, but it's a cultural thing, you know, whereas Zen, it has the beautiful qualities of Japanese [00:28:00] culture, that Bushido element, but it's serious. It doesn't have that sort of looseness and playfulness, more feminine approach that we see in Tibetan.
Ryan: Absolutely. And again, typologically, you know, I have friends who come from Zen who come from, you know, insight and other traditions as well, but yeah, that's the difference. And so like, again, if it's just on a personal level, where do I find my home and it sounds like similar to you, it's like at the Zen context and be like, I want to poke, you know, or like pull a prank or something it's like too much.
But also at the same time, I'm like, man, some of those Zen practitioners are fucking tough and I respect that as well. So I'm like,
Adrian: Tapas. Discipline.
Ryan: Yeah, discipline. Right. Absolutely. Which I
Adrian: I love that too. and I'm conscious of speaking to people at different levels on this podcast that people were super into Dharma and geeking out with us and people who are more beginner. And so I want to ask some questions that are hitting people at all levels.
I think a good thing that I'd love. for us to inquire into for people who are newer to meditation, I think there's a healthy balance between [00:29:00] finding a style that naturally aligns with your personality and your sensibility, and at the same time, pushes you a little bit. We want to maybe go against the grain a bit, but not too against the grain.
And one thing I've noticed from practicing in a lot of different dharma and yoga communities. You really see the personality part come through.
So Zen or like Mahasi style, you know, like you get these really hardcore discipline type a personality types, and then you can get sort of the more looser laid back, playful people in Vajrayana.
And it's interesting because you want to be with what suits you well, but on the other hand, maybe some of the laid back Vajrayana people could deal with some more structure and the Zen people could use with some more playfulness.
So, how would you describe that to people in terms of finding a style and a tradition that suits them in terms of being aligned, but also pushing a little bit?
Ryan: Yeah. It's a very good point and, I will go back to this a lot. I'm a big fan of just saying whatever works. And I mean that in so many ways. So if a person finds [00:30:00] themself in a tradition or an approach that just feels amazing, and that's, what's working for him, great.
If somebody wants to go the opposite route, they have that feeling. They're like, I need something different than me. And that's how they start. If it's worked for him, great. I trust that if they're really committed to the path and have teachers, and a community, self correction and adaptation will happen inevitably.
So I trust it enough to I don't need to tweak it up front.
That being said, what I think tends to happen is that people tend to go with an approach that feels much more of who they are. At least in that moment in that time of their life. But I think tends to be deep down a little bit more of like who they are typologically.
But at a certain point they're going to have to switch it up and let go of it. Because they're going to have to try something very different because otherwise their awakening... Especially again, I use that word integral, but like in life, it's to be more robust and integrated in life, we're going to have to embrace different styles of practice and different ways of practicing, which means experimenting with other traditions.
And most people I know have experimented with at least one other and with a lot of sincerity, if not two. I [00:31:00] think three is a pretty good match, whenever you find any teacher these days our age, boomers, you know, they've, they've done it. They might've had one person they studied with a lot in the beginning, but then a couple others that they also fell in love with and yeah, made their practice and their awakening deeper, more nuanced, more responsive.
So I think that's what happens. And so I know, like if people come to me and they're really into the awareness style. Well, here's what happened. They've either done mindfulness a whole bunch and then they come into me and, you know, the car, you know, we're going this direction now and we have to undo habits and saying like mindfulness is totally great, it's just that you got to practice a different way.
Now, what's going to help you deepen and kind of move past where you feel stuck, it's going to be something different opposite, like awareness. But then people who love awareness, like me, they might be like, non dual and awareness, that's where it's at! I'll be like, no,
Adrian: Yeah.
Ryan: that's what you think right now, but that's an attachment to that and you do need other ways of practicing. Go do a bunch of mindfulness or whatever it might be... heartfulness, you know because there's different ways of like [00:32:00] working with mind body and heart as well in terms of styles and ways of waking up. So it's like how much are we awakening from our heart? How much from our gut? How much from your body? And I think that also tends to invite people into practicing in other ways.
So my response would be to like to trust the process and try to have people in your life where you can talk openly about practice. So that way, you know, you cook where you're at. If it's working, you get the most out of it. And then at some point it's going to gas out. you know, you're going to feel the breaks and you're going to feel the pain points of only practicing in that way. And you'll have that reflected more by hanging out with other people who are different and have varied experience.
If you're only practicing like with one teacher who does only that style, and they've only ever done that style. And you're hanging out with fellow practitioners who'd done the same, then a little trouble, and that happens a lot, because then you just double down.
Adrian: Well, what's in a traditional Dzogchen or Vajrayana context, I think one great thing about that, as opposed to some other traditions where it's just about the formless pure awareness, that's built into the system. You know, Tsoknyi Rinpoche Minyak Rinpoche will say, you can try it. You can just do Dzogchen or [00:33:00] Mahamudra and see what that's like.
My experience is that gets a little dry. Do some Tonglen. Do some White Tara practice. And that to me is the difference between Vajrayana or Shaiva Shakta Tantra and Zen. We're bringing in the deity yoga, we're bringing in the heartfulness practices and it gives it that rasa. It gives it that juiciness and flavor and love.
Ryan: Totally. I'm glad you brought that up because I remember now. Another kind of pivotal moment that I remember on the path is like once I started practicing with Namkhai Norbu and then kind of culminated in a month long solitary retreat in Massachusetts out at Tsegyalgar. It was really like three and a half weeks solo, but then there was like a week, a long small group retreat with Jim Valby, who was one of Namkhai Norbu's long time students, and he taught Santi Maha Sangha.
But I remember him in that retreat explicitly talKeng about, hey, as Dzogche n practitioners, we can go practice with everybody. No problem. Which was a point to be made inside of the context of Tibetan Buddhism. That was the first time I heard it stated in that way, like literally go practice...
And he listed off people he wouldn't practice with from different lineages and everything. So it was [00:34:00] kind of like this sense of like, be open. Go explore. And I remember that I didn't feel that open at that time. It was at that moment where I was like, so
I think it's easier to take that approach these days in this context where we're exposed to so many different traditions all at once, like immediate access and seeing everybody online talking and about it. I think it was a little bit more difficult, 20 years ago, 30, 40 years
Adrian: Yeah. And that's very much in the tradition, certainly of Tantra. It's true in um, Shaivachakta Tantra and it's true in Vajrayana. It's common to have, to study with many different teachers. It's that analogy of the bee going to different flowers.
I really resonate with that approach and I also love that there's an emphasis on the root guru. I think there's importance of having a primary teacher so that when you do encounter inevitable conflict between different points of view, you do have that hierarchy and say, no, there's clarity, I'm deferring to this person and you take your time. Yeah.
Ryan: This is an interesting topic here for sure. I [00:35:00] don't know where I land on it, but I'm glad you brought it up
Adrian: I'd love to hear it, especially
Ryan: your.
Adrian: if your perspective's different.
Ryan: No, I don't even know if I have a different perspective., There's some things with how the root guru ideal is presented in traditional Tibetan Buddhism, or sometimes don't resonate with that.
Adrian: Say more.
Ryan: Maybe it's a little bit too idealistic about enlightenment. Scandals and stuff that have happened in Tibetan Buddhism. This is not unique to Tibetan Buddhism, but there's lots of traditions where there's this guru ideal. I don't think it's inherently bad, just, there are definitely some problems that have come to light, obviously, by this point, old news, so I won't get into it because yeah.
But as far as like, what is good about it... here's some of the challenges...
Back when I was growing up in Tibetan Buddhism
Adrian: In Missouri.
Ryan: in Missouri.
I just told you all what I do. I had to drive to fucking Chicago to watch a VCR tape of a transmission while the teacher was giving transmission somewhere else. That was the exposure.
So it's like, how the hell am I going to have a real relationship with somebody when that's limitations? It's not the same thing as being, in Tibet thousand years [00:36:00] ago, like at least how idealize it, where it's just like, here's a monastery maybe. And you're hanging out with this teacher all the time. or you're a yogi and you find, a master and you live with them and hang out with them.
It's like, no, now this is a world stage. And these teachers are traveling everywhere, especially that time, right? Cause it was still blossoming. Like, whoa, Tibetan Buddhism, you know, Dalai Lama. But my, when I picked up that book, that was mean, he really blew up on the American stage with that book. It was a New York Times bestseller.
So it's like a world tour, they're like rock stars. Right? And that's not a relationship in the way that I feel like a relationship is organically compared to some of the mentors I've worked with where being able to have a conversation like this
Adrian: Yeah. Person to person.
Ryan: you know, it was so transformative. it was so needed. It was a totally different thing.
So this is not like, I don't want to put an either or here, but I definitely like, I always felt that where I'm like, "No, I don't have a personal relationship."
And I know that past that we're only going to say, well, there's a special, some sort of special sauce that happens. And that person, you keep having that special sauce with them, wherever they're at. But that still doesn't take away the fact that [00:37:00] we're all walking a path and we need a real relationship that's ongoing along with our path. I remember Namkhai Norbu had an email and he would let people send emails, but he had too many.
You remember Bruce Almighty? You remember that movie? With Jim Carrey? He, so, Jim Carrey complaining all the time about his life and keeps blaming God, you know, traditional mythic God. played by Morgan Freeman. And so, Morgan Freeman gives him, yeah, of course. gives him the power of God. And uh, he gets cocky and starts doing everything, he's going, I'm going to save everybody. And he, he all of a sudden starts to hear everybody's prayers everywhere and it's just like completely mind melting and overwhelming. So he tries to figure out the system and he's like, Oh, I'm going to put up the email. So they all get downloaded, the "you got mail," and he's responding to everybody. And then he's, you know, it's like going super fast. And he's probably like hits it. And he still has like a billion emails left to get to.
So, like that, I sent him an email and I got like a one line response and none of it was helpful. Very cool that he even tried.
Adrian: Hmm. He did get back to you.
Ryan: got back eventually with a single line.
I'm so sincerity, like he totally wanted to do that, but it's not the same thing as those people who got to [00:38:00] live near him and spend lots of time with them. And not the same thing as what the experience I had having a real relationship over time, like the one on ones that I offer.
It's huge. So once I found that, that was a whole nother journey of my path to be able to work with some people in person and have one on one conversations.
Adrian: Yeah.
I think
Ryan: people can have really special relationships in the sense of like, yeah, this is my root guru and I have a personal relationship with them and it's powerful and it's the main person I work with.
And it seems like maybe that kind of happens still even across the lineages, even outside of Tibetan Buddhism, people tend to have a person that they've worked with for a long time and that's their go to, even if they work with other people. So I think that seems to happen in some simple way, but the word root guru carries a punch.
Adrian: Thank you for sharing that. I'd love to think through it, with you and what it means
Ryan: yeah, yeah, love to hear
Adrian: Yeah.
I certainly can relate to some aversion to the shadow aspects of that. It brings up similar things for me, root guru, in terms of the shadow and the hierarchy. I don't have to subscribe to idealizing someone to that extent.
Ryan: Uh huh,
Adrian: I don't have to [00:39:00] view them as infallible. And I think when you view it through an integral framework, which we'll get into later, but through these different streams of development, we might say, from a waking up perspective, this person is very advanced in their high level of competency or mastery, and that's why I'm with them.
And then yet from a growing up or psychological perspective, if they're from a traditional Tibetan background, they could be at different stage of development, you know, it could be a mythic stage of development like in Ken's...
And on the cleaning up front, it's good to be helpful with the uncertainty. I don't know this person's shadow, you know, and just using that as an opportunity to look at my own projections.
Adrian: So I've come to really feel a deep sense of heart connection to Tsoknyi Rinpoche. I feel like I really got the guru principle when I met him. I found that person, and I feel that still, and so I go back and I relate to him that way. And for me, I think a great teacher, it's really about, he doesn't have all the answers. And I love one thing about him, he'll [00:40:00] poke people's questions if he gets that projection, But it's really about what he embodies and he's inviting you to recognize and stabilize that recognition within yourself.
Ryan: Yeah, I love that. I think that's, that sounds beautiful. I think that's how it should feel and that's what it's about, that heart quality and also the maturity that you're bringing with it and how s your teachers. I think that's important too.
But the love, the embodiment, the heart connection is wonderful. And I think I've just, I felt that with more than one teacher before. So I think that's more for me of like, do I land on one person that have that with more than another? I don't know, but my path was weird because I think it would've been different.
You know, I think it would've been different if I were 20 years old now. And the kind of connections I might've made with different teachers. I don't know.
Adrian: Yeah. So I guess the flip side of that coin, that was part of how I, but the other part is why I made the comment I did about having the clarity of instruction. As someone who studied with so many different teachers, lots of different traditions, I noticed that you don't get stuck inside a box [00:41:00] and you can make more meaningful connections across systems, but it can really lead to confusion.
And so it's important to have that, it doesn't mean the person is perfect, but that he can answer questions outside of meditation or Dharma for you, but to have clarity on the instruction and to just follow that... The only thing that I would add as a caveat, as someone who's studied in two traditions that are, I think, fundamentally similar, but distinct, like Shaiva Shakta Tantra and Vajrayana, I would consider a root guru within each. Yeah, because otherwise the view's different.
Ryan: That makes sense. Yeah, it's very interesting.
I think too, also, I'll process this a little bit as a teacher. So then there's one, I was like, well, what was my experience working with teachers? But then now it's like have students and, I'm probably still processing some of that because now I've worked with people long enough to where some of them see me as one of their teachers.
It's like one thing. Oh, how do I feel about somebody? And then, oh, how does somebody feel me? And then what's my action response. And so I might have some [00:42:00] caution where I'm like, have contributing a shadow stuff to a person who sees me in this particular light.
But I encourage people to work with other folks. And in Buddhist Geeks, we have that policy where a person can't be working with a teacher in too many capacities at one time. What do we call it? The, something to do with guru. It's pretty liberal. It's not too tight. But there's some rails in there to say like, hey, we're not trying to develop a only one teacher period and they have all the answers, infallible kind of approach there. We want to encourage you to study with more than one teacher. That's the principle there really.
Adrian: That's healthy.
Ryan: yeah.
So it's, like I said, again, very liberal. It's not too strict or anything like that, but it just provides very minimal guardrails.
Adrian: In episode six, Ryan and I talk about Ryan's personal background with practicing and teaching meditation. We identify several aspects of spiritual and therapeutic practices and their impacts on modern society. We also touch on the importance of integrating and embodying awakening as well.