Grounding Psychedelic Therapy In Contemplative Practices
Episode 15 with Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Sara Lewis, PhD, LCSW, the co-founder and director of training and research at Naropa University’s center for Psychedelic Studies. This conversation explores the intersection psychedelic-assisted therapy, healing intergenerational trauma, building resilience in the face of adversity, and how having a background grounded in contemplative practices can support with the preparation and integration of using plant medicines like ayahuasca and soma for greater healing. The conversation delves into the diverse frameworks for psychedelic-assisted therapy and advocates to make these transformative experiences accessible and meaningful for a wide range of individuals.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introducing Sara Lewis, PhD, LCSW
03:07 The Intersection of Psychedelics and Dharma
08:54 Somatic Experiencing Why Groundedness Is Important When Using Psychedelics
14:33 How To Integrate Insights After Ceremony
25:44 Traditional vs Modern Approaches For Psychedelic Use
42:52 How Psychedelics And Buddhism Can Support With Healing Trauma
Guest Bio:
Sara Lewis, PhD, LCSW is co-founder and Director of Training and Research at Naropa University's Center for Psychedelic Studies. Sara earned her PhD at Columbia University in medical anthropology and public health; her research sits at the intersection of religion, culture and healing with an emphasis on non-ordinary states. As a Fulbright scholar, she conducted long term ethnographic research in India, culminating in her book, Spacious Minds: Trauma and Resilience in Tibetan Buddhism, which investigates how Buddhist concepts of mind shape traumatic memory and pathways to resilience. Sara has also published research on ayahuasca and spiritual emergencies. As a contemplative psychotherapist, she specializes in intergenerational trauma and healing through Somatic Experiencing and psychedelic-assisted therapy. She is an Associate MDMA-Assisted Therapy Training Consultant for Lykos Therapeutics and provides ketamine-assisted psychotherapy in her private practice in Boulder, CO.
Full Transcript:
Adrian: Welcome to Redesigning the Dharma. I'm your host Adrian Baker, and today I have a very interesting conversation with Dr. Sarah Lewis.
Sarah is a Ph. D. and licensed social worker and is the co founder and director of training and research at Naropa University's Center for Psychedelic Studies. Sarah earned her PhD at Columbia University in Medical Anthropology and Public Health.
Her research sits at the intersection of religion, culture, and healing with an emphasis on non ordinary states. As a Fulbright Scholar, she conducted long term ethnographic research in India, culminating in her book, Spacious Minds: Trauma and Resilience in Tibetan Buddhism, which how Buddhist concepts of mind shape traumatic memory and pathways to resilience.
Sarah has also published research on ayahuasca and spiritual emergencies. [00:01:00] As a contemplative psychotherapist, she specializes in intergenerational trauma and healing through somatic experiencing and psychedelic assisted therapy. She is an associate MDMA assisted therapy training consultant for Lykos Therapeutics and provides ketamine assisted psychotherapy in her private practice in Boulder, Colorado.
Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Sarah Lewis.
Well Sarah, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you being willing to come on Redesigning The Dharma and speak with me.
And to start off, you know I will have read your bio for folks in the introduction, but if you could just start by stating, your role at Naropa, what and how you would briefly describe what you do.
Sara: So it's great to be here with you. I'm Sarah Lewis, and I'm the director of training and research at Naropa Center for Psychedelic Studies. I'm, um, one of the founders of the center and primarily responsible for designing and overseeing, a training [00:02:00] program that we have mostly for clinicians interested in learning how to provide psychedelic assisted therapy.
Adrian: Great and how did you get interested in this line of work specifically with psychedelic therapy?
Sara: Well, I've been interested in long before I was interested in therapy.
And I can say that my interest in, psychedelics started when I was, pretty young and, I think really paved the way for my interest into the Dharma and then later, later I got, I got interested in therapy.
So, you know, I've done some, some other things. I did my PhD in public health and I did, um, some international work in India and Nepal but have always returned, to this deep, kind of interest in psychedelic care.
Adrian: Nice. I think that's something that a lot of people can relate to. How they got into Dharma or meditation through psychedelics. And I'm wondering if you can say a little more specifically about that.[00:03:00]
Sara: Yes, it seems so obvious somehow, but then also a little bit hard to put into words.
You know, my real beginning with, with psychedelic work was primarily with in ceremonial context. And, I think just coming to understand. the nature of, the nature of space and how to actually how to actually be in space and to see that time and space are much more flexible then we might, understand in sort of conventional American culture.
And so just encountering, you know, space and time in a more expansive way brought me to meditation and I think a deep interest in considering, past and future lifetimes. These days I'm really interested in intergenerational work, which is, you know, I think also about space and [00:04:00] time.
So I really had a longstanding interest in that. Which, you know, again, seems so kind of basic, but also a little bit maybe challenging to put into words. So there's some ineffable quality, I think, both in, um, you know, contemplative practice and, and psychedelic work.
Adrian: Yeah, for sure. And, I know just from having a look at some of your work, well, and of course being at Naropa, you've been in Vajrayana, you know, Tibetan Buddhists. Did you go kind of straight into that? Or, did you have another, uh, you know, school within Buddhism that sort of...
Sara: Yeah, no, no, that's always been, um, my home territory, so to speak.
Adrian: And what drew you to vajrayana?
Sara: I think that, um, how can I explain this? Despite having these very kind of like cosmic interests, I'm also a very pragmatic person. I like, being in the world and it really was that [00:05:00] aspect of the Vajrayana that grew me in. The idea of sacred worlds in the everyday.
The idea of, you know, being able to relate to emotions to, you know, worldly life, actually as, sacred or, looking at the ordinary as, as sacred and to me, the, Vajrayana perspective is really beautiful and being able to, elucidate that, right? So this sense of not needing to necessarily like, you know, put something away or put something on the shelf in order to find some, you know, more like sacred way of being. But actually seeing that what's happening right now and ordinary life, meeting people where they are. I think the Vajrayana perspective is very, juicy in that regard.
Adrian: I would agree.
Sara: Yeah.
Adrian: That's part of what drew me to [00:06:00] it.
You know, I think you also touched on something I think which is really important and just kind of foundational just from a You can say a human psychology standpoint, you know, which is just like having this sense of the sacred.
And I was trying to convey this to, and it intersects with psychedelics, I think in this way and why psychedelics can be so powerful, especially for a lot of Westerners or anyone who comes up, you know, and they don't grow up with that.
Maybe they were very highly educated, they're into science, they're into reason. They're even very skeptical of religion, know, and I was talking with a client about this recently who had that sort of skepticism and I was, you know, trying to get him to think is it possible that there's a need for the sacred. And you can honor that while at the same time not having to believe in dogma or even not having to believe in God or religion, and so I'm, I'm wondering when you use that word, the sacred, what do you mean by that? Especially in a contemporary context is the way you talk about [00:07:00] making sense of it in the world.
Sara: Yeah, I think to me there's some, um, sense of, both a deep humility on the one hand and then also deep reverence. Right? And so, you know, holding a sense of, like, as vast as you could possibly go and also the humility, the preciousness. And to me, you know, there's a deep meaning that can happen when absolute truth and relative truth actually come together.
And so sometimes our experience of sacredness, particularly in those ordinary contexts. Is when we actually understand, you know, that there's something very deep happening, very open, very expansive, you know, in that more kind of universal energy or universal openness or awareness that's transpersonal, right?
You know, so it's actually like far beyond, our [00:08:00] life, but we're a part of that. Right? So it's like having to hold both at the same time, and that's sort of how we can often meet, meet sacredness.
So the founder of Naropa, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche really was interested in this idea of joining Heaven and Earth.
And that that's, you know, in that, that joining, that that's actually for us as human beings where we can experience the sacred. So it's not like transcending, right? It's not having to kind of leave our life, or give up our life to transcend to something better. It's actually, you know, I love that idea of, of the joining of heaven and earth.
Adrian: Yeah, or that we can experience transcendence and open to it, but within the imminent, being grounded to it.
Sara: Right. Right.
Adrian: At the same time, not escaping up and out.
Sara: Yeah, groundedness. I mean, that's yes, I think both for people interested in contemplative practice and [00:09:00] definitely for people interested in psychedelics that need for groundedness is something, that I think we actually need to help each other with. And so, you know, to your question of how I got into all this, my interest in psychedelic therapy kind of came later.
And, in a therapy context, you know, I think that's part of the role of a psychedelic therapist is both helping people actually realize that they're so much more than they think they are. They, they have this incredible innate wisdom and intelligence and understanding, you know, more than they could even ever imagine.
And, probably much more groundedness and humility is needed. And so those might seem paradoxical, you know, so that's part of the, the role, I think, of a, of a facilitator or a guide.
Adrian: Yeah, well, let's talk about that. I think this is a good segue in terms of just this theme of groundedness, you know, and I'm curious, what role, given your background in Dharma, do you [00:10:00] see any kind of contemplative practice playing and supporting people in helping to not only integrate, but to prepare for psychedelic journeys.
And perhaps you can talk about what you also see missing in a contemporary psychedelic space with respect to perhaps some of those needs not being met.
Sara: Yeah, I think that there's a real, eagerness for people to, want to offer psychedelic care. There's a lot of excitement. It's a very common thing that when people, you know, have their own really transformative experiences, there's a natural. thing that happens that then we want to offer.
things were so profound and helpful and transformative for us. It's a really natural thing. But sometimes that leap comes a little bit too quickly and with not enough training for lack of a better word, enough of a backing of a lineage of some kind. Right? And so there's this [00:11:00] good intention to offer, but it's done a little bit too quickly.
So then a question arises is like, oh, well, how ought someone to then do some of their own work, you know, but before moving into that space of offering. And I think, contemplative can be really, really contemplative practice is really needed that many of us don't even know how we feel.
We don't even have much of a sense of our own basic somatic, you know, um, experience at a given moment. Many people tend to be either really dissociated or they're kind of like on overdrive and from either of those spaces, if we're really jumping quickly to try to be a benefit and help someone else, it's like, we're really bypassing, you know, to your question that, that sense of groundedness.
And so it's impossible to really be grounded without first, really understanding what is my own experience.
Adrian: Yeah.
Sara: And [00:12:00] so, yeah, I mean, you know, when we get to the point of doing psychedelic facilitation or care, your awareness and your concentration is, there's a multiplicity happening, right? And so your attention, your mindfulness, your awareness needs to be on, the person that you're helping or people, if it's a group, also on the space itself. And also, some awareness that you're keeping also on your own body, you know, your own mind, your own awareness.
So that's like, four or five things right there, and there's probably many, many other things as well. And so contemplative practice really, I think, is such a wonderful way.
Practice is a great word. It helps us practice it. Right.
Adrian: I mean, I think you said a couple of important things that I'd love to, I definitely want to bookmark and circle back to the thing about wanting to help others sometimes too quickly.
Sara: Mm hmm.
Adrian: Because I think that's [00:13:00] important, know, but even just on a basic level of, for people who don't have that come up and they're just approaching the journey,
um, For people who really haven't spent some time meditating, you know, most people really just are held hostage to the next thought that appears in awareness.
And just really training yourself on what it's like just to recognize that a thought is just a thought. And yes, there can be a danger if you get really into that and sort of the spiritual bypassing and not going into some of the content and the patterns that keep coming up.
But most people aren't even getting to that point, it's just really believing the next thought that comes into one's mind. And so, I certainly have a bias, as I'm sure we both do, in meditation circles and yoga circles. But, I just really view that as like a pretty essential starting point grounding and navigating a journey or else it just seems very, very, easy to get swept away by what comes up. And I think that's [00:14:00] particularly, I mean, I think it could happen with any psychedelic. It sort of makes the appearances in the mirror of the mind very vivid.
Sara: Right.
Adrian: And there's this phenomenon of, um, things feel very certain. You know in the wake of the experience.
Sara: Oh, I think you're right about that.
Adrian: And And you just named one flavor of it like, "Oh, you know, I've been told to help people. The medicine told me to be a shaman." But, but it can be so many things, you know, it can be, I need to start this business, leave my partner, build a shrine to whatever. And can you talk a little bit more about that phenomenon and yeah.
Sara: Yes, because I think you, yes, this is a thing.
Adrian: Very much so.
Sara: Yeah, and it's interesting how this happens. I think it's just the sheer, you know, power, of some of these insights that come and I think, something that happens that then when we're like, when we're in a nonordinary state, the insight, [00:15:00] that's kind of coming, I think, um, is, um, is contextualize well.
I think where things kind of can sometimes go awry is then when we're like coming back from the non ordinary into the ordinary, and then we have to make sense of it. And so then things can become very concrete.
And it's almost like in our ordinary mind, we're coming back into a kind of dualistic state, coming from a non-- more non dual or, you know, trans duality right into this kind of like, state of, is it this or is it that?
Well, I was having these feelings about kind of these, these differences in my partner and so then we have to kind of like make it concrete to really understand it. So there's kind of like, you know, when people talk about integration, a lot of psychedelic integration is you are translating. You're translating into your [00:16:00] ordinary life because you're going from sort of the non ordinary into the ordinary. It doesn't just happen automatically. And so this is definitely a phenomenon that happens.
Sometimes people are actually right about something. You know sometimes it's like one moment all of a sudden like there's just like a huge shift. And it does sometimes happen that people realize like, oh, I actually don't love my partner anymore. I have, you know, or I need to make this career shift. So if that, persists, the duration goes on, the certainty continues, right? It's like, what's wrong then with, giving a little bit more time?
But I think that, when these kind of like huge insights come one thing I think that's important for all of us to consider is, is this something that is moving me away from people who I love and who I [00:17:00] care about?
Sara: Is this making me less relatable or is this something that's actually... that I can see that it's bringing benefit to my immediate surroundings? So sometimes when people get really deep into psychedelic work, they, you know, will have feelings like, I'm on to something and, no one can really understand unless they're in this state of mind too...
We can get really swept up into the harms of capitalism, which are certainly real, but sometimes it's like people become less and less relatable, and that can be a bit of a warning sometimes. Like, if you look at people who are very realized beings, they can open and actually relate to almost anyone, right? Like, they don't make these separations of like, these are the really super enlightened people [00:18:00] over here. And then here's the, the other people over here.
So which direction are our tremendous insights taking us? Are they helping us to actually have humility and connect with more and more people? Are they helping us to have greater sense of humor? Play? Connection? Or is it taking in a direction where there's actually fewer and fewer people who we can relate to?
Adrian: Yeah. I think that's a great, that's a great test, you know.
Is this inviting greater connection? And also just kind of like, testing it by sharing, I mean. sharing your experience, maybe not in the immediate aftermath, being careful about who you're sharing that with, but more and more over time, like with people, a larger circle, including people that might have divergent perspectives, you know.
One thing I heard a little bit in your explanation is like, when we're coming back, the integration, we're needing to make a story, but also holding it [00:19:00] lightly.
Sara: Right.
Adrian: There's a need for that, like learning to be intimate with the uncertainty and the paradox of it all. Yes, I have to act, but like really watching out for that kind of messianic, zealous phase, because I think a helpful way to think about it is, yes, these can lift the veil. They can give us insight, but like, they're also amplifiers.
And it could make someone in your example, realize the harms of capitalism and you know, I know they're those stories: someone was a CEO or they work for an oil company and then they realize the impact on the planet that kind of thing happens, but It's also totally possible, you know people who are like a religious fundamentalist take it and they're like more certain about the religious fundamentalism.
Or it just amplifies the politics that you already have and then you surround yourself by more and more people, oh, I need to be around the people who just get this or think the way I do and and I think the learning to be comfortable with the paradox and uncertainty, going back to a theme that you touched on [00:20:00] kind of from the beginning when we started talking about dharma is like a really important thing that I try to come back to and emphasize to people.
Sara: I think so too. I think holding the paradox should be a core competence of a psychedelic therapist. You know, that when we're collapsing too much into one direction, it's like, we're kind of, we're kind of missing something. And I mean, over the years, I'm like, really trending more towards really thinking about how to help people integrate that is nonverbal.
Because it's almost like, as soon as we put something into words, like if you're saying yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else. So it's almost like with language, we're describing things in a certain way. We're saying, this is the story, this is what happened.
And then people are sort of just like recounting, recounting this tale. And sometimes that's [00:21:00] helpful. Sometimes I think that actually there's something so important of actually needing to share with others, and this can sometimes happen in groups that actually in the integration process, the act of telling one story to others that that is tremendously important, so that can happen, but sometimes, yeah, it's almost like we need to get a little bit more creative with what integration looks like.
And so I'm always looking for ways that looks different and more expansive. That's more connected to mystery rather than, you know, this happened and then this happened.
Adrian: And so what do some of those techniques or practices look like?
Sara: Yeah, well, I've gotten into, um, training in a modality called somatic experiencing because in my own, psychotherapy training... I think this happens more recently for people who might be doing therapy training now, but, when I did my therapy training, there was very, very little [00:22:00] emphasis on the body. I mean, it was really like talk therapy and so, the body is a place of mystery, it's a place of, um, somehow there's like more access, I think, to the transpersonal realm through the body, interestingly enough.
So that's kind of, something that I'm working more with these days. Art, music, nature... but, um, yeah, very interested in connecting with people who, you know, are, are expert at that because, the other thing that can happen is it's almost like someone has a really important experience and then when you try to recount it to someone else, it can fall flat. I think many people have had that experience. It like felt so amazing to you. And then it's almost like you hear yourself talking about it and like, you can't quite, you know, it's, it's, it's almost like that magic can kind of like dribble out.
So I think that there is some tension between receiving [00:23:00] support, working with someone else to kind of help you do that integration work. We are relational beings so that means that we tend to heal in relationship. But yeah, I think more and more that an important role of the, facilitator, the person who's doing integration is to really help the person hold on to, the magic of their experience.
Adrian: Yeah. It's interesting.
One thing I thought of as you were talking about that and it landed, "holding the magic of your experience." I mean, this is kind of a discussion in meditation circles is how much to share of your meditation practice and experience. And I think there are good reasons. Traditionally, there's kind of the taboo on that. It's about cultivating humility, not being too attached to impermanent experiences, all this.
In some ways it can be not helpful as well, right? Cause you know, trying to talk about what awakening is and getting different flavors, expanding your view. I appreciate people like Adi Ashanti who really just sort of had the confidence, I think, to [00:24:00] talk more openly about that. but you know, one of my teachers did say, sometimes I keep some of your beautiful like experiences like keep it for yourself.
And i think there's a healthy tension there in terms of to share and with whom versus like actually looking at like oh this was amazing and like can I also enjoy savoring this or keeping this for myself as well
Sara: Right. Or it's like, can you share it over time in who you are?
Let what you've learned come through as a transmission. So let that shape the way that you are with other people. Let that shape your actions in the world, the choices that you make. And people do, learn through transmission with one another.
So it's like, we don't always have to. Have like a sign, you know, that we're holding up about
Adrian: yeah,
Sara: right?
Adrian: In fact, it's it can be far more effective to [00:25:00] not have the sign and not, I mean, in general, being evangelical about something tends to really not be a good look to anyone outside of the circle, you know? Whether it's your diet, your religion, but it is difficult when people get enthusiastic about something.
And I definitely, I feel that and sense that within the U.S. And I wonder, I mean, I think it's a thing with psychedelics generally because it is a profound experience, but I wonder to what extent that might be particularly potent in the U.S. Because we come from this Protestant culture and it's, it's easy.
I think when you don't leave it or live in other cultures to maybe underestimate the extent to which that can shape us in subtle ways, things like the Protestant work ethic, things like that.
Yeah, I just maybe touch on what you see about those evangelical tendencies within the psychedelic movement in the U. S. Like, what do you see that concerns you? Is there any message you'd like to share? Aside from the one to one sort of be the transmission, how about the [00:26:00] larger conversation and the way that's unfolding that might concern you or you'd just like to see it approached differently, if at all.
Sara: Yeah, You know, it's good to take our time before we jump into something. It's good to have recommendations. It's good to make sure that we're vetting the people that we're working with.
I also really think that it's a good thing that there is a multiplicity of different ways to experience psychedelics. And so, even like, really heavy, kind of like biomedical settings. I mean, I certainly have plenty of friends and colleagues who would be very, against that, like what, you know, like psilocybin mushrooms in a lab and and I get that especially 'cause I think the mushroom really likes to be outside.
But on the other hand, to your question, uh, about the US. The vast majority of people living in this country might never have the karma we could say to actually [00:27:00] encounter, you know, a genuine curandero of some kind or a genuine lineage, right, of people working with mushrooms or ayahuasca.
Most people, you know, they wouldn't have that karma, they wouldn't have that inclination. That wouldn't be a part of their social fabric. And so I care a lot just about ordinary people, and so certainly there's something happening in the, in psychedelic communities that, um, I don't know, like people seem to think that there's almost this like over kind of like preciousness or specialness or something, and it's like, I also care a lot about just regular people.
The ordinary regular person out there, because of our societal conditioning. It might be that the average person actually is going to need something sanctioned by their doctor. They're actually going to maybe only feel comfortable being in a really medicalized, [00:28:00] setting. And so I try to really keep that in mind that a multiplicity is really a good thing.
So that, that feels important to me that there's respect because sometimes there's a lot of, vicious critique that's happening. and there's the people working more in ceremonial spaces, um, who have a big critique of, you know, people working more in clinical trials and really medicalized settings and vice versa.
And so just, that idea of what the Buddha said, that there's 84, 000 different kinds of teachings, right? That, that all of us have different kinds of minds and karma and inclination. And I think, there's a way to find a good, healthy, safe, community or practitioner for every kind of person.
So in some ways I think it would be helpful if all of us could sort of like take a deep breath and, appreciate that.
Adrian: I'm very much with you on that. I mean, I think it's actually remarkable how much infighting there is and gossip. And I mean, it just goes to show it's human like anything else. And people
Sara: Yeah. [00:29:00] Maybe it's like in every industry, you know, in politics, right. It's like you just, yeah.
Adrian: Diets.
Sara: like,
Adrian: the worst. Yeah.
People have very strong opinions.
Sara: Right. We think what we're doing is like so unbelievably special and important and, um,
Adrian: Yeah. No, I, I agree with you in terms of access. And, and, Another important thing on, access, because I remember in our initial conversation where we spoke before we recorded, you know, you talked about this being important, and I feel that way as well, and I think there are many different dimensions to access.
You can think about it from a financial perspective, for example, people having access to treatment. I think another thing in terms of access as well, and it relates to this being flexible, offering it through different lenses, is a lot of times, these medicines, just like the Buddhist teachings, or any religion, when they go to somewhere new, they need to adapt to the context.
Sara: Right.
Adrian: And I guess, how do we honor the need for the traditional, while also sort [00:30:00] of recognizing the reality that the way the medicines are offered sometimes might need to be adapted. So, for example, with something like ayahuasca in particular where it's got a very specific container, a shamanic approach, and there's a worldview that comes along with that.
But a lot of people clearly from a Western context really do resonate with that. And for many other people, they don't, you know, they don't necessarily want to take on certain metaphysical beliefs about that. I've also spoken to other people just from, from Asia, for example, who just really couldn't, like, relate to it that way, or they were from a Muslim background and they couldn't relate to it that way.
But if, you give them, like, it's someone who's, say, a facilitator, not a shaman, and then they have the permission to make sense of that experience through their particular meaning framework, their religion, their spiritual path, their culture, then it's something that can really land. so I'm curious, how do you think of that question in terms of access where we can honor the traditional and [00:31:00] the cultures who brought that wisdom forward, but also have a conversation about the need to adapt it so that can really meet people from different cultures with different needs and viewpoints?
Sara: Yes, I think it's a really good question, and I think something can happen, to what we were speaking earlier, like, oh, ayahuasca told me that I'm authorized to be leading these ceremonies or the mushrooms told me that I need to start a church. And I don't know, I mean, maybe that is happening, right?
I mean, you know, these plant medicines, are actually relational beings, you know, or indigenous communities talk about these plant medicines as, relatives as specific relatives, right? Like, you know, from, from, uh, uh, given culture. And, so I don't know. I mean, maybe people are having those experiences.
I think, it is interesting to see how some medicines have traveled to different places. There's some really [00:32:00] interesting work happening in Israel and Palestine where, communities of Palestinians and Israelis are actually intentionally drinking ayahuasca together for the intent purpose of, peacemaking and actually, you know, doing this deep work together on behalf of their communities and doing a lot of intergenerational trauma healing work.
And so I look at something like that, and, I feel very, very moved by that. I have a lot of appreciation and interest in that, and I'm, I'm holding open the possibility of, I don't really know, right? I mean, so I'm not someone who comes from an indigenous background.
So I don't really know. And there are some groups, in the Amazon who are banding together and actually starting to speak out in different ways about their sacramental medicine being used by, by different groups, outside of their own setting in the Amazon, you know?
So I think I'm really kind of trying to [00:33:00] be open to that. Taking the time to listen and it's like when when we don't know it's okay to say, "I don't know." And so, in looking at how some of these medicines actually travel and sort of access of, you know, who, should there be restriction, right?
So there are some political action groups which speak very strongly and have the view that, everyone should have access, that it's a human right to heal, that it's a human right to have access to plants and fungi. And, I wouldn't say that I, personally take that view, I'm, I'm much more oriented to really listening to communities who have these living traditions and have, you know, centuries long relationships with these plant medicines.
And so if they're voicing that there's ways that, the medicines are not necessarily, available to any and all however they want them, I feel pretty inclined to listen to that.
And I think things [00:34:00] can also change. So, a couple years ago in the, Naropa psychedelic, therapy training, we were studying iboga and Ibogaine. And we actually hosted some Bwiti elders from Gabon and we had translators and, you know, sort of this big thing that we put together to make this conversation happen.
And the Bwiti elders shared something really interesting. They said that, you know, and they were older, they were probably in their late 70s, or even some of them in their early 80s. And they said earlier in their life, that they didn't see Iboga or ibogaine as something that they wanted to be available to people at large, but then actually, in recent years, the spirits of the medicine actually began communicating with the elders and saying, like, there's something about this time that we actually want the medicine to be made more available. And so these Bwiti elders talked about, you know, exchange and reciprocity.
And so that was a really [00:35:00] beautiful and interesting conversation to see that, we have to be attuned To context and also look at how things might change, and that could be moving in a direction of more openness, like, with these elders, you know, we're sharing about about Iboga, but also being mindful that there might be times where the medicines have to be brought a little bit more insular into the communities. Like, I think that's happening with peyote right now. And that's something that I really respect.
Adrian: Just to clarify on the last point you said,
Sara: Yeah.
Adrian: You're saying, with peyote, it's the fact that it is becoming held a little more within that community, right?
'Cause Mm there are concerns there. I mean, I think there are probably a few different perspectives, but there's sustainability concern there.
Sara: Yeah, sustainability is one issue. I don't think that that's the only issue.
I think it's also that issues of respect, you know, and so there's a lot of interesting debates right now of companies who have, patented mescaline [00:36:00] and there's the Native American church has come out and actually said that they don't see that as helping, conservation.
They actually see the patenting of a heritage molecule, you know, the patenting and then profiting off of what they, the Native American church describes as a heritage molecule as, problematic, you know, so that's just an example of something that's happening in present day
Adrian: But the issue with something like that is, I mean, mescaline isn't found only in peyote, right? So it would be actually quite a claim to have someone to say, well, it's in this particular plant, but that's not the only plant or the only group who works with that molecule.
Sara: Mm-Hmm. . There's a lot of debate. There's a lot of debate in the, in the synthesizing. And, and I think, you know, your, your question, the, this issue of the synthesizing and patenting of not just mescalin, you know, but of the psilocybin kind of molecules, there's a lot that's sort of embedded, lot of assumptions and a lot of [00:37:00] debate that's held, and I think we're gonna see more and more of that as these clinical trials, you know, kind of move through where you do see the synthesizing and patenting of different medicines for different molecules. Yeah.
Adrian: Yes, and it goes back to something we touched on earlier, just in terms of the intensity of, conversations within the psychedelic community. And some people have very strong, I would say in some cases, not for everyone, but rigid views about particular topics.
I think the synthetic versus natural... even as someone who I can say, having tried synthetic versus natural plants, I think there's something to it. Like, I think there's something that gets lost if you take DMT out of the plant. It's pure. There's something to the, the, language around, "this plant has a spirit." I don't know how to make sense of that scientifically, but subjectively, I think that's true. I can tell the difference.
Sara: Yeah.
Adrian: And at the same time, I also think that, again, different people, different modalities. It's also completely legitimate for [00:38:00] some people to explore that, and perhaps they resonate with that more in a synthetic way.
way
Sara: Yeah I mean, sometimes I have a view too of like, well, you know, these medicines are here in the human realm. So in a sense, they are natural in a certain way.
Adrian: Right.
Sara: Right? Like they're here. And so I think of, you know, things like ketamine or MDMA, you know, psilocybin is like actually coming out of human brilliance.
Adrian: Hmm.
Sara: Right. And so, maybe plant medicines and fungi, I don't know, maybe they sort of crossed into some, some other realms in some way that are just like, so beyond, the little blip of humanity, but certainly these synthetic, medicines, I think there is some kind of spirit with them, maybe it's not sentient in the same way.
Like maybe it's not as agentive, right? Like this. such a common thing of like, ayahuasca told me to do this, you know, by the way, ayahuasca did tell me to be a therapist. So I guess I was one of those people who kind of followed [00:39:00] through with that.
Adrian: Thanks for owning it. Yeah.
Sara: Yeah, but right, you know, this very like agentive, you know, and so maybe the spirit of MDMA, perhaps is not as kind of like, you know, being in, you know, communication so directly, or having this kind of agency, but I think certainly there is some spirit of the medicines, for sure.
I mean, you can feel it when you're facilitating something, you can feel that moment. You know, when you're sitting with a client, you can feel the moment that the medicine comes on and you can also then feel it leaving. So what is it that you're actually feeling, when that happens?
Adrian: Right. Yeah. That is, that's a discussion where I genuinely have a lot of sympathy for both sides of it and can relate to it. Yeah, it is just worth noting, like many things are natural, including like poison, including cyanide, just cause something is natural,
Sara: it doesn't mean it's good, right? So we have this like binary of of "natural" = "good," "unnatural" = "bad".
But yeah, I, um, when I was [00:40:00] doing, ketamine therapy training, we had to do our own ketamine sessions as a part of that process and one of the ketamine journeys I did, I had a really kind of powerful encounter with ketamine and the ketamine kind of schooled me on that because I think I was coming in with more of that bias of like, well, the plant medicines are kind of like, you know, actually really a little bit better.
And the ketamine kind of schooled me on that, so that's where I'm getting some of these ideas from. There's really something incredibly magical about science, about medicine. I mean, isn't it incredible that someone has come up with these formulas? You know, it's it like that is pure magic actually.
Adrian: Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, this is like one sort of example that came out when we were learning more about like whole foods and nutrition years ago. It's like they discovered that taking a beta carotene tablet just isn't the same as eating the whole carrot. There's something about eating the whole carrot that is actually nutrition. And I think that principle applies for a lot of things that are true, and [00:41:00] I could see how that could hold in certain ways in the psychedelic space. I feel, as I mentioned, something can get lost when you take DMT out of the plant, sort of some of the sentient intelligence I've experienced
Sara: Right.
Adrian: Can be lost.
But, number one it makes sense that might not be categorically true, and one thing that I've experienced is with psilocybin, I've never done synthetic psilocybin. I'd be curious to try it because one reason I stopped working with it was that, and I know many other people who experience this and many don't but, there can be a real heaviness of breathing and tightness of muscles and these other kind of side effects that go along with it.
And my suspicion is that that comes from other things in the mushroom besides the psilocybin. I believe that because when I make it as a tea versus eat it and I'm boiling it, a lot of those effects are mitigated. It's still there, but it's really mitigated.
And so, I wonder if that's an [00:42:00] example where it's actually the beta carotene tablet would be better, you know, psilocybin itself is the magic and there could be other things in this fungus which are maybe mildly toxic
Sara: Yes,
Adrian: or suboptimal, or whatever and
Sara: right.
Adrian: and that's totally possible.
Sara: I don't know. I mean, I have to admit that, you know, I hear about these like ayahuasca, capsules that are being made and let's make ayahuasca that doesn't have the purgative effect. I mean, it's hard for me to stretch to that level. Um, right.
Adrian: Yeah, I view that as a different claim than the psilocybin
Sara: That's a different, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Adrian: Cause people will tell you the purging's part of ayahuasca, I've never heard someone say, oh, the heaviness of breathing and tightness of muscles as part of the psilocybin healing,
Sara: Yes,
so, you know, it's an interesting moment. And like, you're saying, people do have a lot of, strong opinions.
Adrian: Yeah. In some of our remaining time together, I'm wondering if you can weave back in, I know you, you're some of your earlier work, you wrote a book [00:43:00] on Tibetan Buddhism and trauma.
Sara: Mm
Adrian: And I'm wondering if you can talk about, what Tibetan Buddhism helped you to understand about trauma and specifically the way that intersects with psychedelics, the way that kind of work comes together for you and your work as an integration therapist between Vajrayana, trauma work, and psychedelics.
Sara: Mmm. Yeah sure. So the book is called "Spacious Minds: Trauma and Healing in Tibetan Buddhism" and, Spacious Minds, comes from, a term that I heard a lot. So I was conducting interviews with Tibetans living in Dharamsala, India, who had experienced, political violence and other kinds of trauma and, um, leaving Tibet and, coming to India as a refugee.
And so I was really interested in, um, better understanding processes of resilience, among this group and the term that people kept using was Sempa Chemba, which means vast or spacious mind.
And basically the way that, these Tibetan [00:44:00] community members, the way that they understand resilience in the face of trauma is, the extent to which someone's actually able to hold what's happening somewhat lightly. The extent to which people are able to be flexible, the extent to which people are able to, you know, understand that, sometimes when really terrible things happen, we might think that it's a result of our negative karma, but we actually, if we could take this wider view and this was really, their perspective that I'm sharing, there was a sense that, things that happened in our life that may bring on trauma, it's not only negative things that sometimes come from that.
And so you hear this even in the U. S. with people who identify as a trauma survivor, you know, or have something terrible that happened. There's this sense of deep learning that often comes with that. And so [00:45:00] there's a perspective that was developed called post traumatic growth that also looks a lot like that.
So this can get a little complicated because this is not saying that what happened was okay. This is not saying that, the person who experienced torture or abuse in some way that somehow they're responsible. You know, for now, kind of dealing with what happened without any responsibility or accountability, right?
On if there was a perpetrator of violence. So, it's sort of a tenuous thing to walk into, because it's not saying that, but this idea of spaciousness or flexibility also suggest that, there's something about being in this human realm, that there are things that we learn and unfortunately, it does seem that pain and suffering and loss is sometimes a part of that learning.
And so, you know, for Tibetans, the people who are most resilient, it was not. You know, it's [00:46:00] not people who were not experiencing we could say like symptoms of trauma, right? Often people who are very psychologically healthy can actually feel things very deeply and very profoundly, but it's more like then how, how do you relate to that over time?
So I think to your question of how I might relate that to psychedelic work, psychedelics can bring, a lot of spaciousness. And, you do hear a lot of stories of, I think this can be particularly true with MDMA. You know, we know MDMA is not classic psychedelic, but can have some of these similar properties.
It's not uncommon that part of the trauma work that they're able to do is they're actually able to somehow take on this wider view and have a little bit more sense of empathy and compassion, not only for themselves, but for many others who experienced the same thing. So there's just this natural widening that can happen.
So I think the experience of [00:47:00] trauma tends to be very narrow, very constricted, very tight, you know, and it's a lot about protection, right? So people who are really having a lot of trauma impacting them in a challenging way, it's like their world needs to become small as a way of protection.
So it's not helpful To begin trying to blast through people's, you know, I don't even really use the word defense, um, or resistance. I would more call that intelligence or wisdom, but there does seem to be something about psychedelic work which gives us opening, you know, a little bit more of a widening. In Therapy language, we might say it's a broadening of the window of tolerance, that what we're able to kind of take in or experience, there's this opening that happens. So yeah, there's certainly some similarities.
Adrian: Nice. I can see how that, provides people with a great set of resources.
Yeah. As do many, practices within the Tibetan tradition. You know, they've got their own sort of psychological
Sara: hmm.
Adrian: practices like chöd [00:48:00] and things like that for working.
Sara: Oh, yeah. I mean, right. And just, you know, the Vajrayana in itself is very sort of psychedelic, you know, in a certain way. Very psych,
Adrian: Yes. Very.
Well, Sarah, I'm conscious of your time, because I believe you've got something else to run off to. But I want to thank you and give you an opportunity to let folks know where they can find you or any upcoming offerings you have.
Sara: Yeah, sure. so two good places would be, um, they could visit my therapy website, which is, spaciousmindpsychotherapy. com or definitely check out the Naropa Center for Psychedelic Studies to see what we're up to.
Adrian: Well, thank you so much, Sara. I really enjoyed this. Could have talked for hours and really appreciate your time.
Sara: I agree.
Adrian: Okay.
Sara: Yes. Okay. Thanks so much, Adrian.
Adrian: Alright, you. Take care.