An Experiential Path To Awakening

Episode 16 with Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Justin Kelley, PhD, the Executive Director at Tergar Institute and Tergar Schools. Raised in rural Massachusetts, Justin’s transformative journey began in Tibetan refugee communities in India and Nepal. This discussion dives into the role of the scholar-practitioner, his extensive research in Buddhist philosophy and meditation, his responsibilities as executive director in the Tergar community, the importance of balancing traditional and contemporary learning methods, and the challenges and adaptive strategies for transmitting Vajrayana Buddhism in the modern world.

Episode Highlights:

  • 00:00 Introduction to Justin Kelley, PhD

  • 05:24 Justin’s Journey with Buddhism

  • 19:44 Meeting Mingyur Rinpoche

  • 27:20 Tergar Institute & Tergar Schools: Mission, Curriculum, and Approach Towards The Tradition

  • 34:57 Adapting Vajrayana Teachings and Discussing Power Dynamics in Traditional Institutes

  • 46:16 Psychedelics & The Importance of Stabilizing The View

Guest Bio:

Justin Kelley, a scholar-practitioner deeply engaged in both the academic and practical realms of Tibetan Buddhism, was raised on a farm in rural Massachusetts. His path took a transformative turn when he spent a decade immersed in Tibetan refugee communities across India and Nepal, where he dedicated himself to studying Tibetan language, Buddhist philosophy, and meditative practices.

In 2021, Justin earned his PhD from Rice University’s Department of Religion, under the mentorship of Dr. Anne C. Klein, a distinguished professor of Religious Studies. His scholarly interests are expansive, encompassing the meditative and philosophical systems of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism, phenomenology, contemplative studies, and learning theory.

Justin's research is particularly focused on the nuanced processes of personal transformation—how these transformations are cultivated and the outcomes they yield. His dissertation explored Longchen Rabjam’s ontology of purity within the framework of the Great Completeness (Dzogchen), contributing to a larger project aimed at tracing the genealogy of purity throughout Buddhist history.

In addition to his work in Buddhist theory and practice, Justin is passionate about the learning process and the art of pedagogy. His teaching philosophy is grounded in a transformative approach, emphasizing engaged and applied pedagogies that foster inclusive and empathetic learning environments. Whether in a classroom or digital setting, Justin is committed to creating educational experiences that honor the full spectrum of human experience.

Currently, Justin serves as the executive director of two interrelated organizations: Tergar Schools and the Tergar Institute. At the heart of both organizations is the seamless integration of Tibetan Buddhist theory and practice with contemporary approaches to learning, with Tergar Schools focusing on primary and secondary education and the Tergar Institute on continuing and higher education.

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Full Transcript:

Adrian: Welcome to Redesigning the Dharma. I'm your host, Adrian Baker, and today I'm speaking with Justin Kelley. 

Justin is a scholar practitioner deeply engaged in both the academic and practical realms of Tibetan Buddhism. He was raised on a farm in rural Massachusetts, and his path took a transformative turn when he spent a decade immersed in Tibetan refugee communities across India and Nepal, he dedicated himself to studying Tibetan language, Buddhist philosophy, and meditative practices.

In 2021, Justin earned his Ph. D. from Rice University's Department of Religion under the mentorship of Dr. Anne C. Klein, a distinguished professor of religious studies. 

His scholarly interests are expansive, encompassing the meditative and philosophical systems of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism, phenomenology, contemplative studies, and [00:01:00] learning theory.

Justin's research is particularly focused on the nuanced processes of personal transformation, how these transformations are cultivated, and the outcomes they yield. His dissertation explored Longchen Rabjam's ontology of purity within the framework of the Great Completeness, Dzogchen, contributing to a larger project aimed at tracing the genealogy of purity through Buddhist history.

In addition to his work in Buddhist theory and practice, Justin is passionate about the learning process in the art of pedagogy. His teaching philosophy is grounded in a transformative approach, emphasizing engaged and applied pedagogies that foster inclusive and empathetic learning environments.

Whether in a classroom or digital setting, Justin is committed to creating educational experiences that honor the full spectrum of human experience. 

Currently, Justin serves as the executive director of two interrelated organizations, Tergar Schools and the Tergar Institute. 

At the heart of both organizations is the seamless integration of Tibetan Buddhist theory and practice with contemporary approaches to [00:02:00] learning, with Tergar Schools focusing on primary and secondary education, and the Tergar Institute on continuing in higher education.

As you can tell, Justin has an incredibly rich background in terms of life experience, as a practitioner, as a scholar, and, given our shared interests and particularly our shared connection as well with the lineage of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, I knew that there would be a lot to discuss, about the great workings of Tergar and Minyak Rinpoche and all the exciting work that Justin is doing in this space.

So, I'm sure you'll enjoy my conversation with Justin Kelly.

Well, Justin, thank you so much for your time. My I appreciate it. Let's get into it. 

So I will have read your bio at the beginning of the podcast for our guests. But if you don't mind, just to give a little context, briefly describing for the audience, how do you explain to people what is it that you do? 

Justin: Sure. Uh, yeah, my name is Justin Kelly. Technically, I guess I'm a professor of Buddhist studies. Something that I've been engaged with now for a [00:03:00] number of years.

I consider myself first and foremost, the father of two young children, a husband to a wonderful partner, a community member...

Really interested in ways that we can create more human flourishing, for ourselves and for others. And the Dharma is the path that I've taken to explore, the Buddha Dharma that is, to explore this topic. But I really love engaging people from all backgrounds who are interested in similar ventures.

Adrian: Beautiful, thank you. Yeah. I'm curious, how did you first get interested in the Dharma or meditation or whichever came first? 

Justin: Yeah, they kind of came hand in hand. And to be honest, while Mingyur Rinpoche is my primary teacher, has been for quite some time, it's not necessarily the meditative practices that are most interesting to me about the Dharma. 

Of course, I've been engaged in meditation and contemplation for many years, but I've always understood it more of a [00:04:00] tool to evoke a certain experience or a certain understanding of the world than anything perhaps liberatory in and of itself, which we can discuss more.

But my background really goes back to my earliest days. 

My parents were hippies from a bygone era and had ideals of cultivating self knowledge. But hadn't really come in contact with a sequenced path or some way to actually enact that. 

And so I had these seeds placed in me, but without instructions.

And then I went to college. I actually played football in college all four years. So that was a quite unique time in my life where I was engaged in a physical practice, but again, without any support for how to deepen that, right? 

I was deeply embodied in certain ways, but without any self reflexivity, we could say.

So then I graduate from college in 2000, start working in [00:05:00] land conservation, which is something that I'm very interested in, environmental and land conservation, and was pretty distraught with how things were at that era. 

The lack of appreciation for our natural environment and in turn, the lack of support to protect it. And so I found myself developing increasingly pronounced anxiety and depression, like many of us. 

And there was a place that my parents had taken to me years prior, which is a Japanese style Peace Pagoda part of the Nipponzan Myohoji Buddhist School, something that I know of now, but didn't at the time. 

 and, um, something drew me to it. I was in that region and I said, hey, let me pop up and, you know, have a, have a stroll and just clear my mind. And in very, I don't know how to put it, serendipitous way, there was a monk from the community there who was painting the pagoda. and this pagoda is in Leverett, Massachusetts, if that means [00:06:00] anything to your listeners. Uh, the oldest of its kind outside of Japan. It's quite an integral place in the flourishing and development of the Dharma in the West. 

It's a massive structure. And there was a man painting the pagoda. I think they were preparing for their 30th or 35th anniversary. And I asked him what he was doing. 

And he said, "painting." Pretty obvious. 

And I said, " Oh, could I help?"

And he said, "Sure." 

And he handed me, I think I'm remembering correctly, but like a four or six inch paint brush and a small pail of paint and said, " Go ahead." 

And I said, "Where should I start?" 

And he kind of chuckled and said, "it doesn't really matter. Just start painting. It's such a massive structure."

 So then I, I I spent the afternoon with him. His name is Toby-san. And he's still there at the Pagoda. And I go visit him all these years later. 

[00:07:00] And he said, "Hey, if you want to come back tomorrow, feel free. You know, I'll be here and would love the company." And so I I went back and we started having tea ceremony. And he started incorporating kind of short reflections and meditation. And that was really my first formal introduction. 

I think it was within six months, I was in India immersed in the traditions and have been ever since. 

Adrian: So your first intro was through Zen. he 

Justin: Well, they're a Pure Land practice. But in this day and age, right? They were incorporating Zen style meditation 

Adrian: Right.

Justin: Toby-sa n who's a wonderful person, I don't think he's gone through all that much formal training other than the kind of core chanting practices that they do. 

So I think he was drawing from a variety of sources and amalgamating it into some offering. 

Adrian: So I actually want to go back before we continue with this because it's very interesting, I love hearing your story.

I want to go back to something you said at the beginning, which is you said you sort of looked at Dharma as not [00:08:00] necessarily about liberation so much, but it is a means and, remind me of the word you used, something to evoke experience? How did you phrase it exactly? 

And I'm curious what you mean by that.

Justin: I was distinguishing, for sure, it's a good question, distinguishing between Dharma. Which here I'm understanding it as a lived expression of Buddhism. 

And then meditation. And meditation can include mindfulness, analysis, you know, practices to open the heart, the Brahma Viharas, for example, uh, imaginative visualization practices, so it contains a bunch of what I understand as technologies. We 

can take those technologies and then apply them to certain subjects, topics, themes. 

And so the distinguishment I was making is that 

meditation meditation is a useful tool or set of tools, but in and of themselves, they're not liberatory in nature. They can cultivate a greater precision in our concentration, for [00:09:00] example, or allow us to analyze something with more precision or deliberateness, but nonetheless it's the Dharma that's most important, to me at least. Right? The teachings that we're cultivating a better understanding of. 

Adrian: And do you think of dharma in the context of liberation? In that traditional sense? 

Justin: A hundred percent. 

Adrian: Okay. I just wanted to clarify that in case, because that was a big thing. If you were, because there are different ways to make meaning of it, and I just didn't know if you were having a non traditional or contemporary take on it. 

No, 

Justin: what's interesting is I actually find myself being more of a traditionalist than I would have imagined. 

You know, I got my Ph. D. in religious studies. So we spent a lot of time thinking about what defines a religion. And you get into these conversations where people say, Buddhism isn't a religion.

 Or it's a way of life, or a philosophy. 

And for me, it's really clear, it's a religion.

[00:10:00] It's So let's, 

I'd 

Adrian: love to talk more about that. 

Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's circle back to that. That's a, that's a great to be continued. 

So you were telling us about the story and you said within six months of that, you ended up in India, and then how did that journey unfold from there? 

Justin: Sure. my intention in going to India was multiplicitous, let's say. One of it was, I got introduced to these meditation meditation techniques, to this idea of the Buddha Dharma, and I wanted to go pursue it. I had this ideal in my mind. 

I also wanted to shake free of these you know, uh these tendencies of mind, anxiety, depression, and I thought a change of scenery would help with that. And then, And there were other intentions, right? I was smoking a lot of pot at the time. And in India, hashish was a really critical part of certain spiritual practices. Friends had reported such. So I was like, Oh, let's [00:11:00] go try that.

So for the first couple, few months of my time in India, I was wandering around on the hippie trail or what was the hippie trail, um, meeting really lovely people, meeting some spiritual practitioners, smoking a lot of pot or hashish and allowing that to guide me.

And then like many of us, I started to question how worthwhile is this? And there was one Hindu guru who I met who questioned it actively 

and 

Adrian: Is this the cannabis? 

Justin: Yeah, said, is the cannabis supporting or, you know, preventing you on your spiritual path? And that started by mind churning, right, thinking okay, what do I want?

And that's when I shifted more towards overt spiritual practice. Yoga, like Hatha yoga, pranayama practice. And then very shortly after that, explicit Buddhist practices.

Adrian: Yeah, interesting. I'm curious, so have [00:12:00] you done cannabis recently or is that something that you quit a long time ago? 

Justin: Periodically. 

Adrian: Becauses, one thing that I was going to ask, now that it's a legal market, have you, and we really know what we're consuming and we can be more conscious about it, have you experimented with consuming it when you've got very clear ratios of CBD to THC? So one to one, two to one, three to one, that kind of thing.

And I'm curious how that experience is different for you, if at all. Because, and just a little segue, I find I can be much more intentional about it when I'm doing it, let's say with a high amount of CBD relative to THC, because I find that it mitigates the psychoactive effects. 

My attention, if the CBD is high enough, my attention is actually stable and it in some ways can soften me and bring me into my body.

And as someone who has ADHD, it actually helps to kind of slow things down. And that can be nice as long as the THC really isn't dominant. And then, I my [00:13:00] attention scattered, I'm lost in thought and it's really just not a conscious intentional experience and I'm curious if that resonates with you or how...

Justin: Not particularly. I I haven't it with such intention. 

So when I have engaged, it's been in social settings, and old friends, for example. It certainly isn't a core part of what I, what I do or... 

Adrian: Do you notice how that affects your attention differently, if at all, though, with the CBD dialed up? 

Justin: Yeah, so my disposition is more towards hyper attention and more towards I would say intensity for a lack of better words. And so when I consume THC, sometimes that can spark whether it's fear or anxiety or just like a hyper drive. 

So I think my attention is refined. And I'm able to stay with things. I'm not the person that just spaces out, but it also doesn't, again, I haven't kind of [00:14:00] calculated the impact that it's having on me in that way. 

Adrian: Cool. Fair enough. I was just curious. Yeah. Yeah.

So you were sharing that, that experience with the Hindu guru had sort of shifted your, your thoughts a little bit and then you started to pivot and get more into spiritual practices and, and please continue how the journey kind of evolved from there. 

Justin: Yeah. So I was in a place, in fact, and I think this would be interesting to you and your listeners. I was in a place called Om kareshwar. Which is, a very sacred space in, Maharashtra, a central Indian state, that's at the confluence of multiple rivers, the Narmada is the primary holy river in that region, kind of akin to the Ganga in northern India. 

And so people would come there in search of spiritual salvation, and I met a guru there, his name was Subhas Chandra, a really lovely man, who, in fact, I've never gone back to visit. I've always intended to. I imagine he's still in the same papaya grove in this little temple, on this little island, doing his thing, working with [00:15:00] local people and helping them. 

But he was the one who started to question the efficacy of the cannabis and was like, it seems like you might be interested in actually what's happening, so why don't we spend our time talking and doing that, right?

Let's do some pranayama techniques to evoke a heightened sense of clarity. Let's settle down the, what I would understand now is the nervous system. Let's talk about what reality is in a way, and it was really fruitful. I spent a couple weeks at his temple in the remainder, what ended up happening, though, Adrian, is I started to kind of question some of the philosophical tenets.

And I was like, huh, that doesn't really jive with my own beliefs, right? Like what I'm seeing to be reality the world. And so I very courteously... 

Adrian: give an example of one or two of those? Just what you're referring to? 

Justin: Yeah, like, for example, and hopefully we'll get into this, but in like the tantric perspective, how you relate to the deity. deity is a distinct entity in this particular thread of Hinduism, which we can talk about more. I actually don't know that much [00:16:00] about it, but in this particular thread, the deity is distinct from you.

You, you merge with the deity, but there is a way that you are kind of, Accessing it, as opposed to dissolving into some type of truth, versus in the Buddhist Vajrayana techniques, that's what's happening, at least the highest Yoga Tantra level, that you're dissolving into a truth, and that the union that takes place between the deity and the practitioner is not an accessing of something new, instead it's a dissolving into a natural state.

that was like a slight distinction that I was noticing. I didn't know it at that time. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it particularly clearly the time, but retrospectively, that's how I understand it. 

Adrian: Yeah it also sounds like a fundamentally dualistic view.

Justin: Exactly.

Adrian: Whereas if there were a non dual Hindu tantra view, like a Kashmir Shaivism or something, you know, I think we could talk about it.

I studied in some of those lineages as well. I'm not sure if that's something you did at, at any point. But the language can be slightly different, but, the essence is very much the same. So I, think [00:17:00] that's the real key part. It sounded like it was a dual versus non dualistic approach. 

Justin: think that categorization is probably true. 

The Shaivite traditions for example, I've always been interested in them, but never have had the time to really sink my teeth in and understand where the differences are, if there are any. Right? I immersed myself within the Buddhist path, and that's been fruitful me as a practitioner.

Adrian: My... 

The short version from really exploring both of those kind of Kashmir Shaivism and other non-dual Shaiva Shakta Tantra and then sort of getting more into Dzogchen after that is that, and, I was trying to make sense of it experientially, not just intellectually with one of my Kashmir Shaivism teachers who knew Dzogchen pretty well, and her brother was a long time Dzogchen practitioner. 

And she said, the essence is the same, it's just that the emphasis is a little bit different. The emphasis in the Buddhism is a little more on the shunyata aspect. And the Rasa or the is just a little bit different on the Hindu side. It's a little bit more on the Shakti [00:18:00] aspect. 

Justin: Sounds interesting. And I think you get that within Buddhism in itself, right? The kind of apparent Yeah. But then once you really start to investigate it, some of those distinctions start to dissolve. 

Adrian: Yeah. So, how did you find yourself going from this point and then getting into, Vajrayana? 

Justin: Yeah. So then I went from central India. I traveled north and someone had told me about Bodh Gaya, the epicenter of the Buddhist tradition, where the Buddha reached enlightenment. And so I hopped on a train, an overnight train and cruised to Bihar, the contemporary state where Bodh Gaya is, got off the train middle of the night, and wandered into Bodh Gaya. 

And at that point, Bodh Gaya was relatively sleepy. If you go there now, it's just a, it's chaos, right? It's like an amusement park more than anything else. Still really profound. Don't get me wrong. Like I love going to Bodh Gaya to this day. 

But at that point it was sleepy. I was there kind of in a shoulder season. It was already getting hot. So not that many tourists. And I spent a week in and around Bodh Gaya, exploring the temple, being deeply impacted by the Bodhi [00:19:00] tree, meeting a couple of practitioners. And then there was this night where I was around the Bodhi tree and there were monks and nuns from all the different Buddhist traditions of which I knew zero at the time, chanting and engaging in practice.

And I was deeply moved and I was like, I had that experience like many of us do and it's like, gosh, I want to know more about this. and just so happened the next day, there was, as is always the case in Bodh Gaya, was a meditation retreat starting. And it happened to be at a Tibetan Buddhist temple and happened to be in the Vajrayana tradition.

So that's what started me on that path early on. 

Adrian: And this was what year?

Justin: This was 2005.

Adrian: Okay, great. And then from that point, that first retreat in the Vajrayana tradition, how did you... and when did you connect with Menyur Rinpoche?

Justin: Yeah, so I was there for 2005 and then spent about, or nine months wandering around India, Nepal in and around Dharma centers mostly. And interestingly went to a very remote Dharma center in the center of Nepal. I just happened to find myself there. 

And there was a Lama, a Western Lama living there, a [00:20:00] meditation practitioner. And, um, everybody was kind of practicing on their own. And then the evening we would chat about the Dharma. It was like my, you know, my favorite thing to do. So, all go off during the day, do our thing, come together at night. And one night he was asking more about me. 

He was like, "what are you doing?" You know, and I, I, I practiced a bit in the Vajrayana tradition and was confused, like, what is all of this? The deities and the practices, the sadhanas, the mantra, the ritual.

And he was like, gosh, you know what? I think you need, I think you need to go to Barre, Massachusetts, and go see Joseph Goldstein.

Never heard of Joseph in my life. He's a good friend and mentor to this day. I was like, oh, okay. Stowed it away in my mind. Couple months later, went home. Home is in Western Massachusetts, not so far from that peace Pagoda that I mentioned earlier. And, um, a friend of a friend's mother was involved in meditation so I went to kind of visit and mentioned this to her, and she was like, you know, Barre is like 45 minutes away. You can easily go and [00:21:00] just see it. Long story short, they had a job opening for like a groundskeeper. I had some background. They hired me. I lived in Barre for a couple of years.

But during that time, I was introduced to Joseph, as well as one of his students and co teachers, Myoshin Kelly, is still a very, very dear friend and teacher of mine. And her and her husband, Edwin Kelly, the former executive director of Terger International, they had been students of Mingyur Rinpoche's for a few years.

And they knew that I had interest in Tibetan Buddhism, and they said, hey, why don't you come along? We're going to a week long retreat with him. Edwin was managing it, and so he said, if you want, you can come for free, and just, you know, take care of the uh, registration and do a work retreat kind of thing.

So I went and that's when I met Mingyur Rinpoche. And I remember the moment of meeting Mingyur Rinpoche like it was yesterday. You know, I get goosebumps and I'm not one predisposed towards that kind of experience, but I was sitting at the Garrison Institute. And if you know where the Garrison Institute is, from West Point, the military training college. 

It was July 4th [00:22:00] weekend. And Mingyur Rinpoche was giving open awareness instructions. And my zeal, I was seated in the front row, like leaning into everything he was saying. And he starts giving open awareness instructions that I'd never, I had been given them in the context of Vipassana, where it's like an iterative path that you kind of culminate to.

But this was the first day of this retreat. And here he is giving us open awareness instructions. And it just so happened that there was a helicopter flying overhead he started to give the instructions. I've recapped the story with peers they verified it. and he just paused his instructions and like was with the helicopter going overhead.

And I remember being with him and this helicopter and having really like the first taste of what, I don't know, some type of maybe to use your terminology in this case, like non dual, or like some type of understanding of my experience that I'd never had before. 

Some intimacy with my experience that I'd never had before.

Adrian: It was a nonverbal pointing out.

Justin: [00:23:00] Completely. Knowing what that is now, for sure. At the time I didn't. 

And so, I went on to wash the dishes that week and handle the registration and be at retreat and then, um, I met Cortland Dahl who became leader of his organization Tergar International. 

And I said, "Hey Cort, if you ever need any help, count me in."

And a few months later, he wrote and said, "Hey, we're doing this thing in Bodh Gaya you want to come and you can help out and, you know, you can stay for free. And I was all in. So 

Adrian: Nice. Very cool. And that was what year? 

Justin: 2007. 

Adrian: Okay. Wonderful. And so, Yeah, just to give sort of the broad broad strokes, you spent several years, you know, it sounds like, in India, Nepal, practicing learning on the ground.

And at some point you made the decision to go back and get your Phd. And I'm curious what sparked that interest to go and then study sort of outside the tradition from a academic perspective? 

Justin: That was quite a few years later. So I met Mingyur Rinpoche, latched onto him as a teacher. And by teacher here, [00:24:00] I mean, I certainly had that like deeply emotive and like, visceral experience with him, but more what I was aligning myself with was his meditation technique.

I basically said I studied with a bunch of teachers and I was like meditation technique is seemingly like the most conducive for me.

So at that time I said for five years, and I just said it internally, I didn't voice it. I just said for the next five years, I'm just going to do what his technique and see what happens. And it evolved and evolved and then I, became more, wholeheartedly his student. So that was in 2007 and then I ordained as a monk in 2010. 

And then he went off for wandering retreat. Before he went for wandering retreat. went to him and I was like, Rinpoche, you know, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do in my life. I knew that he was going to go away and retreat, but I was like. It seems like I like to study Buddhism and it seems like there's traditional paths, Like monastic colleges. I was studying Tibetan at the time and it seems like there's academic paths. Do you have an idea of like [00:25:00] knowing me a little bit, not particularly well, but knowing me a little bit and knowing the landscape, what might be most beneficial. And at that time he suggested an academic route. 

So again, I just tucked it away. And then a few years later I disrobed. And was serving like what I could do. He was still on retreat a PhD at that point, applied and then entered into a program.

Adrian: Wonderful. And what was that experience like for you?

How did that transform your not just intellectual, but even your experiential understanding of, of Dharma? 

Justin: The PhD process? 

Yeah, it's, an interesting question, Adrian. Before I joined my PhD program, a good Tibetan friend of mine said, so you know, and I just met my now wife, then partner. He said, just so you know, "we say when you enter into a college experience to study the Dharma, you become an asshole."

 And it's because you're so engrossed in reason and intellect and analysis that you get disconnected from the heart. So just anticipate that. 

So fast forward a couple of years. I was that I was like, [00:26:00] because I mean, I was a terrible student as an undergrad. I was a terrible student, went to a decent school, but was a terrible student.

When I got to my PhD program though, I was just like, this was it. I was, you know, 12 to 15 hours a day in it, you know, and I, God bless my, my wife who stayed with me. Right. Like I was in it. Um, and so the PhD process was really profound for me. Talk about neuroplasticity. I think I'm a case study.

Like I entered in one way and I came out another way, meaning I had a greater sense of, just criticality, ability to remain attentive, ability to analyze and synthesize information that I didn't have before I entered in. And I'll give a shout out to my advisor, Anne Klein, Lama Rigzin Drolma, who's a wonderful teacher.

She was my mentor; is still a mentor. My advisor through my PhD process, including dissertation and she was blending the two, the practice and the study in a way that was like so embodied that I couldn't help but [00:27:00] eventually align with that. And luckily, before it finished, like I kind of deep in my relationship to it and saw it as a spiritual practice if you will, as opposed to like an activity I was doing. So it ended in a great place. 

Adrian: You were fortunate to have a mentor who was a scholar practitioner herself and into Dzogchen. So. Yeah. 

And so, coming forward to the present day, you know, in terms of your role for Tergar, talk a little bit about the Tergar Institute, what that is, what the 

Justin: Yeah. 

Adrian: Yeah. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Appreciate the question. So, finished my PhD and then came on board. I was working throughout my PhD for Tergar International. Doing some translation work and some curriculum development work. Finished my Ph. D. and then was offered this opportunity to lead, actually two new organizations of which the Tergar Institute is one and the other is an organization called Tergar Schools.

The former, the Tergar Institute, is a place of higher education and it is a multi year curriculum that we've designed Mingyur Rinpoche that is [00:28:00] based upon the traditional monastic college approach. 

So you study basically all of the major texts of our tradition. So you start with the Abhidharma, you study Lojong, in traditional monastic settings they study the Vinaya, but in our case we've adapted it to focus on Lojong, so basically ethical conduct, ways of being. Then we go into Madhyamaka, Prajnaparamita literature, and then culminate with the Vajrayana. 

So taken comprehensively, it's really the foundation of what our tradition holds to be true, both in terms of the principles of what's taught, the view, we could say, as well as the meditative techniques.

In the Institute's case, as compared to Mingyur Rinpoche's other organizations, it's deeply systematized. There are assessments along the way, right? There's a rigor that's brought to the study and practice that isn't the case necessarily in the other organizations. 

And that's not to say that in the other organizations, in his mandala, people aren't fully engaged. It's just, it's more kind of a self arising interest, whereas in the Institute, institute, we're aspiring for accreditation so [00:29:00] there's a certain formality that goes into it. 

Adrian: Right. 

Justin: Rinpoche has proposed the Institute as being a return to a historical moment in which the scholar practitioner divide was not as stark, if any. And we could kind of situate it sometime around like second half of the first millennia India, maybe first half of the second millennia Tibet, right? Kind of like 13, 14th century there. 

Adrian: Are we thinking Nalanda? Is this evocative of Nalanda? 

Justin: Yeah, so Nalanda in the Indian case. And if we look in Tibet, we might think of people like the first couple Karmapas, Longchen Rabjam, Rongzompa, these great scholar yogis that wrote prolifically, but were also Deep practitioners. So he understands that as a return to that moment. So that's how our curriculum's created, really by weaving together these two elements, the practice and the study. 

And then the other I think innovative piece of the Institute is it's all targeted towards application. So by that, I mean, how can these historical teachings and practices inform how we are in the world [00:30:00] today?

And so what we've done thus far and what we're creating is basically like a-- an incubation experience where people come to the institute with a particular area of focus, whether it's the creative arts or performative arts, leadership, teaching, education, really whatever they're most interested in.

And then we help curate a path of study and practice for them leads them to be able to infuse the teachings into whatever that calling is. You know, we're a year and a half old now. We're about to welcome our second cohort to the Institute in Nepal in September, and we've had a lot of success.

I think the world's ripe for this. People are in the world, dedicated practitioners and students, looking to go deeper, but not necessarily the kind of, monastic approach where you remove yourself from the world. They still want to be a part of the world. 

Adrian: Right. 

Justin: And so that's the population we're serving.

Adrian: Excellent. Yeah.

Well, it brings me back a little bit to the origins of Tantra. Which is Tantra was meant to be a householder path, there's a whole interesting discussion that and then Tantra became anastasized in Tibet [00:31:00] and there's you know some interesting tensions there 

Justin: I agree completely. We're in the Karma Kagyu lineage, right? So if you look at some of our forefathers, Marpa is a great example, They're lay practitioners that are as profound of teachers as you can find. So that's certainly an inspiration. 

The other interesting thing, though, just about that divide of lay and monastic is we have both lay and monastic students in the Institute. And that's really deliberate because Rinpoche believes, and I concur with him, having that representation creates an even more profound learning environment. Where if it's exclusively lay or exclusively monastic, something can be lost. And there's a real richness in coming together discussing our lives and engaging in community together that just broadens the prospective impact.

Adrian: Yeah, I can absolutely see that. Yeah.

Thank you for sharing that. 

Justin: And then if I could just the, Tergar Rules project, which is the other project that I'm currently directing. This is a primary and secondary school project [00:32:00] based in Mingyur Rinpoche's vision.

So basically we have one operational school in Kathmandu, 85 students, ages six to 16. We're building a much larger campus in a remote region in Nepal, Yolmo, which is also an epicenter of practice within our tradition, Milarepa, Guru Padmasambhava frequented this place. We're building a school, hopefully going to house around 600 students.

 And the whole impetus for the project is to weave together the same principles and practices that we're talking about in regard to the Dharma with contemporary approaches to learning.

So providing an education that's cohesive, both of what we might understand as our head and heart, right? It's embodied. It's not segmented in the way that oftentimes education is proposed. So our students are learning concurrently. They're learning meditation techniques. They're learning elements of the Dharma, impermanence, interdependence, multiplicity.

Alongside like water pollution and air pollution and the solar system and their multiplication tables. They're learning it all together. 

And the [00:33:00] hypothesis is, and we'll see over time, if this is true, that that's going to result in a truly resilient person. Able to address the uncertainty that we face in our world in a way that if offered in a segmented way, there wouldn't be that same cohesion. Or maybe rather the cohesion would be up to the student themselves to undertake versus we're kind of guiding them through that process from the beginning.

Adrian: Yeah, wonderful. And what are your plans for that in terms of, are you looking to expand that from Kathmandu and from Nepal into other countries. And if so, how do you envision that kind of unfolding? 

Justin: Appreciate the question. Yeah, so, there are kind of two wings to the project. One is to provide as high a quality of education as possible to the impoverished Himalayan populations in Nepal. So that's where our students are coming from. They're coming from the mountains. They're coming from situations where otherwise they wouldn't receive an education. And if they did, it really wouldn't be that supportive for them. It's archaic and outdated in ways that's actually sometimes counterproductive. 

So we're providing an [00:34:00] education for these populations, and that's at the root of our mission. The other half of our mission is we're creating an approach to learning that can then be exported into other settings.

How exactly that takes place, we're still a really nascent organization, just a couple years old. But we're looking for partners prospectively, right, to take this model of learning and to bring it into contemporary schools elsewhere around the world. And as is the case, I always say, with Mingyur Rinpoche, regardless of project, his view is as vast as you can imagine. So, yeah, he doesn't hold back in that regard. 

Adrian: And his drive and energy. Tsoknyi Rinpoche's sort of made some jokes about it. Yeah, Like, I just want to relax. Yeah. 

Justin: It's true. 

Adrian: So yeah, in terms of the way you talked about Tergar Institute and the model and sort of bringing back kind of that academic model, but making it very experiential, kind of along the lines of what you described before in India and Tibet. 

How is this part of the larger project of [00:35:00] adapting the teachings of Vajrayana to better meet the needs and styles of contemporary practitioners? 

Justin: it's a great, great question, and it's one that like deserves lifetimes of reflection, And I'll evoke, one of Mingyur Rinpoche's primary teachers, Tai Situ Rinpoche, in saying, and he reminds us, and I've heard him say this, and it's really impactful, is the transmission of Dharma from one culture to the next doesn't take place in a lifetime, it takes place over lifetimes, over hundreds of years.

And so here we are, generously a hundred years into the transmission, more likely somewhere around 75 years into the transmission of the Dharma. And I think one of the the realities is as Westerners, or as kind of cosmopolitan citizens, let's say, no matter where you are on the globe, there's a heightened emphasis on efficiency.

You want to expedite the process. But I think what Tai Situ Rinpoche is offering us is, just a broader broader perspective. To say, you can't really fast forward the process. The Dharma takes time. You can't manufacture it. You can't manufacture realization. Instead, it [00:36:00] needs to unfold in individuals over time and practice and dedication.

So taking that into account, I nonetheless I'm from a 21st century North American perspective, and I like efficiency. And I want to expedite it. Just like many others do. And so I think the Institute is interested in that. It's interested in being a thought leader and saying, how do we retain the depth of wisdom that comes from our tradition and also face the challenges of today's world?

Because I think a lot of organizations, and this isn't targeted towards anyone, nor meant pejoratively, but they focus on either or. They're kind of a cultural preservation project, really trying to retain that profundity of the historical tradition or adapting for some type of future movement. The institute wants to bring those two things together and find partners to do it.

So if you're looking in, like, the field of pastoral care, how can these principles of emptiness, of clarity, of loving kindness and compassion, how can they be the ground from which the care emerges from? 

And we feel that taking this perspective, it [00:37:00] ensures that we're going to remain grounded in the history of it, but also able to face what's ahead.

So that's really how we understand the Institute. If that clarifies it.

Adrian: Yeah, That is a clear explanation. 

Justin: But I'll also say it's such a daunting and magnificent undertaking. It's going to take years so many people thinking about this is how it arises for you or for me or for our community it's going to be different than someone else in another community.

Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. And I'd love to add just one thing that I noticed having a background in education and then looking at your website. 

Is it's very, um, forward thinking in terms of the pedagogy. You know, I think that one thing we can see a lot in kind of just when you're studying in any, contemplative tradition in Asia, and it's really reflective of the larger education system, which I've seen because I've taught in a school, in a traditional Thai school, and it tends to be very rote.

It can be very pedantic. The instruction and yours is very focused on sort of, very student centered, inquiry based. So the pedagogy really seems very up to date and a lot more in line [00:38:00] with what you're seeing in best practices in schools and somewhere like the U. S. So that's something that really stood out to me. 

Justin: I appreciate you saying that. And I'll add a caveat to that too. 

Right, like my training came at Rice university. I had some great mentors in educational theory, and they were pushing that envelope to make it as student or child or person specific as possible, really creating as dynamic of a learning experience as possible.

What I find now, though, there's certain benefits of the traditional course of study, that rote style of learning, we might call it, that can be missed you don't give it time and kind of honor it. 

Right? So I'll give an example. When I sit with our great Khenpos at Tergar Osel Ling, and even this morning I was doing this, and I asked them a question about the 37 practices of the Bodhisattva, right a text that I've studied four to six times with different teachers, right? Not in depth, but I have some versatility with it.

 One of the Kempos leaned back and kind of drift, allowed his gaze to rise, [00:39:00] recited the text in his mind like, really to evoke it, if you will. then the question was, what kind of commentarial tradition could we bring to help accentuate this for our students?

He didn't think the way that I think, right? He almost entered into an inner library, and rested there, allowed the material to speak to him in a way that progressive forms of learning, just to be frank, I haven't seen them produce the same outcomes. And by progressive and traditional, I mean, kind of traditional being a receptacle that you put information into, and progressive being this kind of dynamic mode of learning that's interactive and engaged, and iterative and applied.

Which I love, and that's what I do, so don't get me wrong. But there's a real honor in that traditional way of learning. That at the Institute, I'm really hoping, and Rinpoche is hoping, and I think we're all hoping, what can we glean from that? To retain that profundity, for lack of better word. 

Adrian: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think there's something to be said for when we're so used to looking everything up. Like researching and also we can't marinate on things and process things in real time in the same way [00:40:00] that this Kempo did in that example. And in order to be able to do that it just does take just time memorizing things, to then be able to do that later in a more sophisticated way.

So I appreciate you sharing that perspective. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Adrian: One thing I wanted to ask about as well is sort of some of the other ways in which you see, on this larger theme of Vajrayana adapting, and what else does it need to do to adapt to kind of best suit the needs of contemporary practitioners? And it seems like one thing we're really seeing in the West that's important to people is talking a little more honestly about power dynamics in organizations.

And, perhaps you can talk about that and perhaps also giving again both perspectives because I think it can get to the point where almost people have like an antipathy to hierarchy.

You know, and it's like, well, there's a reason Mingyur Rinpoche's sitting in that seat or there's a reason you see your doctor, like there's something to be said for expertise, but feedback needs to flow both ways and there needs to be [00:41:00] accountability. And perhaps you can talk about, what you've seen that's maybe missing and then what you've seen that's starting to go well or what you're doing at Tergar to address that. 

Justin: One thing that I find really fascinating just from like a theoretical perspective, if we look at Vajrayana Buddhism, I don't know, going back to like the 10th or 11th century, maybe 7th, 8th century when it started to codify itself and emerge. 

I n Vajrayana Buddhism there's like the most overt expression of fealty to the tradition, and fealty to the teacher, and fealty to some type of like particular way of doing something, as you find in any Buddhist tradition, my experience. 

On the other hand, if we look at it kind of historiographically, and we take snapshots of what Vajrayana Buddhism meant in different eras, and what it means today, it's also the most innovative.

So this is intention, I think, within the Vajrayana Buddhist development. There's this advocacy towards lineage and be aligned with and attuned with the lineage, receiving the blessing of the lineage. And by doing that, or in order to evoke that, you reproduce what the [00:42:00] lineage has prescribed. That's how it works. You do those practices in order to access that blessing. 

But yet the practices have changed over time. And I think that's really important to recognize. So in my opinion, and this is an Unenlightened 21st century, nobody, but in my opinion, I think before it's all said and done, we're going to see a much greater level of the future. As Vajrayana Buddhism, something that I'm not going to see, that we're not going to see, right? It'll take hundreds of years, to see. but I really believe that'll happen. 

And I think that there are people like the wave of adaptation that are out front. And they're kind of to use language that I was brought up with, they're ahead of their skis, meaning that they're leaning a little bit too far forward in trying to adapt things.

You brought up power dynamics, I think it's a great example, to adapt the tradition to fit their needs and being what's called forth from them today. And then there's people on the kind of base of the curve that a little more conservative and everything in between. And then there are people who aren't on the wave who are saying it shouldn't [00:43:00] adapt and they're kind of taking a staunch view of saying no, we need to preserve.

Those folks I'm not so interested in. In the sense that like, if you're entirely closed to this idea of adaptation, it's kind of a non-starter. 

Adrian: There's nowhere to have a conversation. There's no entry point. Yeah. 

Justin: Exactly. So if we look at that then, I have respect for everybody who's doing it. And I have oftentimes critiques for how they're doing it. How we're doing it, right? I think is, is worthy of critique. But we're all trying to kind of fit this need because you're right. 

And maybe to contextualize this, I had a conversation with a very esteemed Buddhist scholar, who I won't mention, but who I hold dear, years ago when I was living in Barre. And I came to him and said, I was wrestling with kind of how the teachings could inform my life situation in the 21st century.

And his sentiment was like, Dukkha is Dukkha. Suffering is suffering. it was 2, 500 years ago with the Buddha, today, or in 2, 500 years, it is universal. And that's why the Buddhist teachings are effective. And I push back against that, and I still push [00:44:00] back. This is 20 years later, or whatever, 15 years later.

I'm still pushing back because I think we are being called forth to face a unique form of suffering that requires unique forms of, practice to deal with. Whether we take large machine learning and AI or any number of examples. 

Adrian: Climate. 

Justin: It's just asking us. Completely. 

So, yeah, so I think that there's been some good work. I think it's going to take a long time. In the Institute's case, where I think we're making our most headway in this idea of, like, really extracting what's most beneficial from the Vajrayana tradition in today's world, it's working one on one. 

And this is something that I'm a firm believer in. In order to really progress along the path, I think at some point it has to become intimate. Relationally intimate.

If we're only attending teachings with hundreds or thousands of people, and listening to it and then practicing on our own, I just don't see many cases where people can do it. 

Adrian: We're not getting feedback. 

Justin: Exactly. So in the Institute's case, we're curating these, what we call independent study projects, [00:45:00] unique to the person's interest. We're fueling what they're interested in, and then we're trying to imbue and saturate what they're doing. Right? I love your word earlier marinate. We're trying to allow them to marinate with the teachings so that then it can be influenced by and arise out of the teachings. And take incremental steps with each person.

That's where I'd say we're making the most headway. The tradition in a certain way, like, um, what's funny, right, like the Tibetan Buddhist canon is considered the largest body of literature ever composed so it's like what I'm about to say sounds ridiculous, but you can essentialize it into a few main points. And those points are non negotiables, from our perspective. 

Adrian: Yeah. 

Justin: We're gonna study Madhyamaka in order to understand the view that the Vajrayana is predicated on. We're gonna study and practice loving kindness, compassion, bodhicitta, in order to really imbue within ourselves this intention. So we're gonna look at all those topics.

And then within the Vajrayana itself, we're gonna study and practice development stage and completion stage, and we're gonna understand it [00:46:00] from within itself. And so that's not really up for negotiation a certain way. What is up for negotiation, and to use your word adaptation, is this kind of movement outward from this foundation.

Adrian: Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. one thing I want to ask you in our short amount of remaining time. 

Back to your personal journey, you touch on cannabis and how that kind of shifted after that interaction with the Indian teacher, I'm curious at any point, did you work with psychedelics?

And if so, how did that kind of, spark your interest, if at all, into just understanding the nature of mind or dharma or what did it or did it not do for you? 

Justin: I was talking about this with a friend not so long ago about it's really a question of like, how do we shake ourselves? How do we shake ourselves out of our habitual patterns? how do we shake ourselves out of our limited worldview?

How do we shake ourselves out of like, our limiting view of self, right? Like, I've struggled for years raised in this Protestant world where I shame myself a lot and it prevents me [00:47:00] from being my complete full self. And I feel bad about myself and lack self confidence.

How do I shake myself free from that? And I think that to use this word again, there's technologies to do it.

I think for example, when I've been hiking in the Himalayas and I come around a Vista, a panoramic view of Snowcap mountains, things shift. You go to the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls or the Redwoods or, the sequoia trees or whatever it is for you out on the open sea. It's like it inspires awe, and I think it can, start to rattle us free from those habit patterns. 

For me, psychedelics is very similar. 

I have had some experience, always in recreational settings, never in more supportive therapeutic settings, which I think is really interesting. But it did play a role no matter how kind of haphazard it was.

 Taking psychedelics for a period of time shook me and made me like, understand, for a moment that like my view is just my view on something, if you will. 

So in that regard, I think it was critical. That was before I [00:48:00] met the Dharma, that was in college, like typical, going to Fish shows type of thing.

Adrian: We are kindred spirits indeed. 

Justin: I'm headed there in 24 hours to see him again. So, so yeah, so then if you look, and this is one thing I'm really interested in your work, and like people who are looking at the intersection of psychedelics and spiritual practice, and therapeutic practices is like, there's a reason why you look at every world culture and I'm not a perennialist necessarily, but you can see similarities, right?

Like you go to South America, you go into African countries and areas, you go into Asia, you see psychedelics everywhere. It is an element of what's happened in history. So it makes sense that it's happening today. 

And specifically with the ayahuasca movement, some friends who have reported to me, I'm really interested. My life situation doesn't really allow me to try it, right? I'm a father of young children, but gosh, I think it could be really viable for a lot of people and maybe for myself.

Adrian: Excellent. Well, if and when you have that interest in the future, by all means, reach out. Would be interested [00:49:00] in continuing the conversation for sure. 

Justin: I'd love to just have you recap, like where are you at in this current moment for yourself in regard to psychedelics and spiritual practice? 

Adrian: Yeah, thank you for asking and, one thing I'll say is I enjoy listening to different people make meaning of it through different maps. I think this is an important part of it, we need to honor and respect the tradition, especially with something like ayahuasca. If it came with a particular context, offered a certain way, and it's like the Dharma, I think it does need to adapt in order to really meet people. So if you have a Sufi background or whatever it is, being able to make sense of it through that lens.

For me, at this particular point in my journey, I really relate to...

I've stopped doing other psychedelics. I did many different things for different reasons, different compounds for different reasons, and I found many of them beneficial. 

But then after an initial encounter with ayahuasca where I thought, wow, that was really profound, but I didn't do it for a few years.

And then I came across someone who was offering that medicine in a different way, in a number of [00:50:00] respects. But the big thing was the view through which he was offering it. He related to it through perspective. 

And he said, I'm not a shaman, I'm a facilitator. I trained in that traditional setting, but I believe it is, the medicine is the teacher and it can work on you and heal you in many different ways, including working with the contents of consciousness in a psychotherapeutic way. But a lot of what it is teaching us is simply to recognize and rest in the nature of mind.

And I already had some experience at that point with Shaiva Shakta Tantra and with Dzogchen. And then I started doing the medicine at the same time I started doing the Dzogchen Merchan with Minyak Rinpoche. And that was a really just powerful catalyst. 

And to me, I see plant medicine as another tantric practice within a tantric sadhana. And that's how I relate to it, through that view and that [00:51:00] map. And so to me, I find it to be a very skillful means, within that spiritual path, and then I can also say within just sort of a psychotherapeutic way, it's really helped me a lot with ADHD and shown me different things about my psychological patterns and the way that's related to ADHD and, how to work with that a little more skillfully.

Justin: I appreciate you sharing. I've always thought, too, like, playing with words a little bit, like people often times in drug experiences will say, in recreational drug experiences, they'll say, I lost my mind.

" Like how was it?" "I lost my mind."

Justin: It's a very common phrase, at least in my era, to report what happened. 

I've always found that interesting, like you lost your mind. You did. 

Adrian: Yeah. 

Justin: And like, whoa, you got a flavor of something. 

Adrian: Yeah. 

Justin: Really profound.

Adrian: It's like, I'm sure you know it, there's a zen koan to that effect, right? 

You can probably say it, but he said, I've been looking for my mind everywhere, right? And he goes, he's like, where did you find it? He's like, I can't find it. 

And like, that's, that is the essence, right? And as [00:52:00] Minyak Rinpoche, not finding, is the best finding, right? 

It's interesting, I was actually working with a client earlier and it was, he was coming up on a similar edge and just in his own meditation practice, no psychedelics, and just saying there was resistance to being in the body and letting go of thought because he felt like he was going to lose his mind. And so, you know, then I just invited him to sit with that question like, who am I when I'm not thinking? 

And so that's, I think, what psychedelics, and in particular, I find ayahuasca or ayahuasca analogs that I really like working with, like SOMA, where you're substituting pegum harmala for the vine.

What I like about it is, do you need psychedelics to recognize nature of mind and stabilize it? Clearly not, right? But, at the same time, the advantage to it is it can make it a lot easier. The recognition part. 

Because the appearances in the mirror are so vivid, and you have just this potent moment of the mind shattering into space and non dual awareness, recognition of [00:53:00] Rigpa. And yes, that is a nyam. It is a meditative experience. But because it's not as subtle, it's easier to recognize it. 

And then I found there's something about the medicine and the way it works, where the more you work with it, like, people are very into, especially with DMT, the contents of consciousness. But the more that I've worked with it, it's been more and more about emptying out into the Dharmakaya and absolutely also learning that Sambhogakaya is equally there and learning to appreciate the flavor of experience but also just learning to recognize the space and when pleasurable experiences come, enjoy them, but you don't have to grasp after them. 

But the view is critical for that because I think the ayahuasca in the psychedelic world is filled with people who are completely enamored with the content and don't notice the context or the space. 

Justin: Maybe just to close, remember years ago, I was, had the great fortune, I was the attendant for Bhante [00:54:00] Gunaratana, this wonderful Sri Lankan elder in the Theravada community. A person who I just adore. I can't say like he was one of the coolest people I was ever around and never practiced with him really but I was his attendant and, talking about Jhana states he was teaching a retreat on jhana. and I was attending the teachings, but I wasn't doing the practice. And he let me sit in and just listen to the teachings. And he kept coming back to this point. He's like, it doesn't matter what state you enter into if you can't replicate it.

He was saying, that's why the Jhana practices are powerful because then you can manipulate your mind in a way, evoke a state of consciousness in such a refined manner, look at and analyze reality, that you can't otherwise. And we might happen into one of those, states of increased concentration. But if we can't get there again, it's not really worthwhile. 

It's always really resonated with me that in the Dharma and within the Vajrayana, what I appreciate so much is the systematization. How it's like, gonna lead you along a path of practice. For others that might feel [00:55:00] entirely just overwhelming and they might get claustrophobic, right? But for me, it's always been a nice, a nice place to lay my mind. We're gonna go through a systematic approach, kind of what we're doing at the Institute, and I did in my own personal journey, that's going to allow you to replicate these practices over and over again. 

And the last thing I'll say is you should come to the Institute. Without question.

We would, we would love to support a project like what you're doing. And really create the scaffolding so that it can sustain into the future a way, that like the lineage can allow us to do.

Adrian: Well, thank you for that invitation. I'm definitely interested. So let's continue that conversation for sure. And I'm enjoying, I'm very much looking forward to the pilgrimage to Bhutan and starting with that.

Justin, well, thank you so much for your time. This was a lot of fun. 

Justin: Yeah, my pleasure, Adrian. 

Adrian: Okay. 

Justin: Take good care. 

Adrian: Thank you. You too.

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