Ayahuasca Ceremonies: Prep, Safety, & Integration Part 1
Episode Summary:
Episode 10 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma features a conversation with Danielle Rateau, a shamanic Reiki master healer who spent a year facilitating ayahuasca retreats in the Sacred Valley in Peru. This episode dives into Danielle’s experiences leading ayahuasca ceremonies, the importance of preparation and integration regarding psychedelic sessions, and how to work with fear or difficult emotions that may arise during the journey.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Guest Background and introduction
07:41 How Ayahuasca Ceremonies Are Facilitated
11:38 Group Dynamics in Ayahuasca Retreats
27:22 The Role of Visions in Ayahuasca Experiences
33:50 Balancing Ayahuasca Use and Integration
47:52 Working with Fear in Ayahuasca Journeys
Guest Bio:
Danielle Rateau has been dedicated to the path of holistic healing since 2017. After two years living and working at an eco yoga community in Australia, she traveled the world exploring different healing modalities. In 2022, she worked at an Ayahuasca retreat in the Sacred Valley of Peru, where she deepened her understanding of Shamanism and healing with plant medicine.
As a Shamanic Reiki master practitioner, Danielle offers distance healings through her practice, Soul Embodied Reiki & Energy Healing. Through YouTube, she shares videos about personal growth, spirituality, holistic healing, and Reiki/ASMR.
Full Transcript
Adrian: Hi, I'm your host, Adrian Baker, and welcome to Redesigning the Dharma.
Danielle and I connected recently after I became aware of her YouTube channel, where she provides some helpful resources for people who are preparing for or integrating ayahuasca journeys.
Even though that's not Danielle's work now, she has worked at an ayahuasca center in the Sacred Valley of Peru for over a year, and I thought just that a dialogue, between the two of us might offer an interesting perspective for some of the listeners of the audience. So, Danielle and I decided to record a podcast together and that's what you'll be listening to here. This is the first of two parts.
So, Danielle has been dedicated to the path of holistic healing since 2017. After two years living and working at an eco yoga community in Australia, she traveled the world exploring [00:01:00] different healing modalities.
In 2022, she worked at an ayahuasca retreat in the Sacred Valley of Peru, where she deepened her understanding of shamanism and healing with plant medicine. As a shamanic Reiki master practitioner, Danielle offers distant healings through her practice, soul embodied Reiki and energy healing.
Through YouTube, she shares videos about personal growth, spirituality, holistic healing, and Reiki ASMR. So with that said, please enjoy the first of two conversations with Danielle Rateau.
Well, thank you so much for making the time to, to come and join the Redesigning The Dharma podcast. Really looking forward to speaking with you.
Danielle: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm it's an honor and I'm very excited to talk about everything. I feel like we have a lot to dive into because there's a lot to explore.
Adrian: For sure. Yeah. And I'm glad we had a chance to have that call and get to know each other, you know, a bit. And I just wanted to start by asking you to share with the audience a little bit about your personal journey and how you got interested in working with [00:02:00] ayahuasca.
Danielle: Yeah, sure. So my personal journey is a little bit of an interesting one.
In 2017, I quit my job. It was like kind of standard nine to five. I had ended a relationship and pretty much sold everything that I had and I moved to Australia. So my plan at the time was maybe six months, just kind of reset, come back to the United States, start life over again.
And that is not what ended up happening.
I ended up living in Australia for two years and the majority of that time actually was at a kind of half ashram, half yoga retreat center in Australia. So it was run by Hare Krishna's, which was really, really interesting. I knew nothing about that religion at the time, and it was kind of my initial deep dive into yoga, into spirituality in many different ways.
There were people from all over [00:03:00] the world that would come and volunteer in this space, because it was like a work away kind of situation. So I was meeting people of every belief system, every, you know, demographic you could think of. And I just opened my eyes to so many different things, like really kind of burst my bubble of what I knew about the world.
And yeah, it was a deep, deep dive into like opening me up and making me a lot more curious about spirituality, consciousness. Um, it just, you know, it just yeah, piqued my curiosity, you could say.
And as I lived in Australia, I kept hearing about ayahuasca. So it was like the seed was planted, but it was never the right time.
But when I moved back to the United States and this was like right before lockdown, um, I was in lockdown with everybody else for those like eight or nine months. And then as soon as it lifted, I just knew it was [00:04:00] time. Um, it was, yeah, it was, the time was right. And I was able to thankfully leave and go to Costa Rica.
And so I had my first ayahuasca experience in Costa Rica, interestingly enough, um, which was probably the most light and beautiful ayahuasca experience I ever had. And we can talk about this cause it's, it's interesting, but it was very light. It was very playful and just beautiful. And. It was like, on one side of the spectrum, whereas many of my other ayahuasca journeys have been a little bit darker and on kind of the opposite side of the spectrum.
And all of those happened when I worked in Peru, with Shipibo shamans. So yeah, first ayahuasca experience was in Costa Rica. And that, just with time led me to making my way to Peru. And I actually worked as a facilitator for about a year at a retreat center in the [00:05:00] Sacred Valley.
Adrian: So just to give a little bit of a context in general, how many sessions would you say you've done at this point, working with the medicine?
Danielle: You know, not as many as you would think in terms of actually deep diving into the medicine and having really intense experiences. I would say, for that number, probably closer to like 10 to 15. In terms of actually just drinking the medicine, tapping into that consciousness, being in that space, like probably a hundred.
Um, but there were many,
Adrian: drinking less when you're, you're co facilitating?
Danielle: Exactly. Yeah. So there were a lot of times when I would be just kind of holding space, facilitating. Sometimes I would actually just be in ceremony to sing with the shamans, when they needed a break from singing their icaros, I would sing in kind of just like medicine songs, things like that. And so I would just have a little bit of medicine to connect, but not, not for me to go into my own [00:06:00] journey.
Yeah. Yeah.
Adrian: And how did that happen? Where you worked with the medicine relatively a Few number of times like 10 to 15 and then you were asked to help co facilitate? How did that come about?
Danielle: Yeah. So, in between Costa Rica and Peru, about a year had passed from my Costa Rica experience and I knew that it was time for another journey. I just felt called to work with the medicine again. And I went to Mexico.
So, in Mexico, I had probably the most challenging ayahuasca experience of my entire life, to the point where I actually didn't think after that experience that I would ever work with ayahuasca again.
And very ironically, at the exact same time, the owner of that retreat center who was there at the time asked me if I would be interested in going to facilitate at his center in Peru. And I had already, I had said yes, and then I had this insanely challenging ayahuasca experience.
So the day after I was [00:07:00] like, what have I done? I don't even know if I ever want to work with this plant medicine again. I, like, how am I going to go and work at a center and be a facilitator? But something told me I had to. I just, uh, I kind of knew that if I didn't move through that fear that it would always have a hold on me.
So. Yeah, it felt like the right choice. And so within, I think, two months, it was like November of 2021 when I was in Mexico, and in January of that next year, I had moved to Peru.
Adrian: Okay, and why did the teacher you think ask you at that point, you know to help co-facilitate if this was something that was relatively newer to you?
Danielle: I think. We talked about it a little bit. He had wanted to create a new position in his Sacred Valley location. And position that he wanted to fill was almost more of like a community space holder, like someone that would be [00:08:00] there for the guests no matter what they needed.
And someone that would just be able to talk to people like whatever was coming up for them that person would be there. Just very interactive and that almost was their main role.
So not even as much like to be a facilitator in the space of ceremonies, more so to be there for people outside of the space of ceremonies. And he felt that I would fit that role and I think we just kind of connected in that way. I had a lot of experience because of working at the yoga retreat center in Australia with, being there for people in that capacity outside of plant medicine spaces.
So that was originally the intention and then it just shifted and evolved into me also facilitating in the actual ceremonies. Yeah.
Adrian: That makes sense. And it's the kind of thing I get that like, once you're there, you're doing something else and they're needing help. Like, you know, it can be an all hands on deck kind of thing,
Danielle: But you know, what, I would love to hear your thoughts [00:09:00] because from what I witnessed, once I actually got to this space, I did see that oftentimes in these retreat centers and especially in South and Central America, it is oftentimes, you know, a guest has come to the retreat, they're interested in being a volunteer and then they're taken in and they become a facilitator and they might not have worked with the medicine themselves very often.
And there might not necessarily be a very specific training process. So I have my own thoughts on that, but I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Adrian: Yeah. I mean number one I would just say I haven't it doesn't surprise me to hear that. I think I've seen that even in just in other contexts like in a yoga context, but it doesn't surprise me.
I haven't witnessed that just because the only time I did it in Peru, or then in the U S in the more formal shamanic setting, it was really well run and the people who were doing it, there was experienced people on
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: [00:10:00] Yeah.
Adrian: Yeah, that, that doesn't really surprise me. I think the main thing that kind of jumps out in terms of how that even happens to begin with is that this is sort of a relatively newer paradigm, this is my understanding, of how ayahuasca is served. When ayahuasca started catering to Westerners. Because normally it wasn't kind of the thing that you're having huge groups of people, 30 people doing it, you know.
First of all, a lot of times just the ayahuasquero, him or herself would drink the medicine. Someone would come to the shaman. The shaman drinks it and actually like would heal the other person. The other person wouldn't even necessarily drink the medicine a lot of times.
And then when other people would, you know, in terms of my friend would see this when he facilitated, when he trained an apprenticed with his teacher, you know, you have a few people in the village doing it together, five people, but you don't have 30 people doing it. You don't have this huge group, which is so [00:11:00] unwieldy. And you could understand in a more traditional context, you know, when you're doing it in a village people are growing up around it and they're they're slowly apprenticing into that.
So it doesn't surprise me and I do think that's generally, like it's something that I noticed westerners, I just released a video on this, westerners have have an issue with. And I count myself in this too I think sometimes we're a little too quick to think we're ready to do something. Like, okay, I've got a 200 hour yoga teacher training, I'm ready to teach.
you know, um, and there's a lot to be said for just sort of taking your time more with something,
Danielle: Yeah. Agree.
Adrian: Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Danielle: I agree with what you said, and I think it's a good point that you made about how this is all kind of a new situation and we're shifting into a new paradigm of how people are even working with plant medicine. So it's not like there's this insane amount of people who have been training, at least from the United [00:12:00] States or the Western world for decades.
Um, so to fill the space of the amount of facilitators that are now needed, it's almost like there isn't necessarily another option. So what you would hope would happen is that even if they are bringing in these, you know, people maybe who have started as guests, and they volunteer, what you would hope would happen is that they stay with it.
And so they do become trained and they do become experienced. What I, I guess, struggle with and what I witness often is that there's such a high turnover that it ends up just being new volunteer after new volunteer, you know, lack of experience. followed by further lack of experience because the burnout is so strong in that field.
And not necessarily with all retreat centers. I think that there are some that do a really good job of taking care of their facilitators, of giving them breaks, you know, maybe you do two weeks on and a week off or whatever it is, but for the retreat spaces where [00:13:00] it's just week after week after week, and you the burnout happens, there is a lot of turnover.
In a ceremony where things go smoothly, it might not be an issue. You know, if you're just going and changing buckets and helping people to the bathroom, then it's fine. But if someone has a situation where something really comes up and somebody isn't trained properly on how to handle that situation, then that's where I see it being a little bit more of an issue.
Adrian: Yeah, and so I really think all that makes sense, and I, as you're talking about it, the churning again, it just brings up to me the image of like, this has a lot to do with the business.
Danielle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Adrian: It's really driven by that, and that creates a lot of the issues, you know. so yeah, and actually I think this relates to something I wanted to talk to you about was larger groups versus smaller groups.
And actually before I say that, I do want to say one point, which is, I could see how [00:14:00] people like could really get trained in something, again, there's analogy to meditation, like there's a difference between like truly being like a master level meditation teacher, and then... We don't want to set the bar too high either on the flip side of things. Like there are people who need mindfulness meditation and they can do a program and then go teach it.
So I think it depends also how you're positioning yourself. And what you're claiming and all that. So for example, I think if someone were to do something like some kind of training with maps and then, you know, you just learn best practices and harm reduction, I'm sure you could go and volunteer at a festival and be able to help people in a really thoughtful way.
And so think there's a role for that. And there's a role of like, I'm here to assist that way, but I'm also not positioning myself as a facilitator or offering this medicine if I'm not very experienced in this medicine myself.
Danielle: Absolutely
Adrian: um, so there's a balance there. I think it just depends on the role. But I think a thing that's also related to it and again, [00:15:00] tied in with the economics is the size of the
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: Yeah.
Adrian: we see, and...
I think this is an interesting one because we can talk about, like, to what extent is that optimal, safe, all the consequences of that. And I think one way people deal with that is, well, they just look at the ratio. Well, if we've got a lot of staff, if we have a high level of whatever it is, like, four participants for every one facility, co facilitator, then maybe that's okay, or that's good, and it's all about the ratio.
But I'm curious your thoughts on that because to me it actually matters just the total number of people
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: Like, it doesn't matter the ratio if you have 60 people in a room, right? And people are going through a lot of stuff. That's why they're there to do that medicine including a lot of trauma and, unless there's some rare exceptions where I just heard about a program where you get to really know people in your group first and that's wonderful.
But even then you only [00:16:00] know him so well, you know, you're doing some online stuff, community building the day before, but a lot of times you don't even have that.
And when you're around 60 strangers or whatever the number is, and you're trying to sort of go through your own healing. I have sensed that number one, there can be a really good teaching in that in terms of learning to be present for other people's pain and suffering,
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: but that's also a little more advanced.
I'm not sure a lot of people, if they're really earlier to a path and they're trying to go through their own stuff, number one, if they're ready for that, and number two, I've also sensed in my friend who facilitates has really told me that, the medicine a lot of times won't fully open up. Like you can't fully open up to receive the mess and there's kind of a shutting down when you're having all this stuff going on around you.
And I've personally experienced that as well in kind of subtle ways and so I'm curious your thoughts as to like weighing those considerations with the fact that the positives like [00:17:00] community can also be great, you know for the connection all that so curious your thoughts on that.
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. And I would be curious just to hear from you, did your friend mention, like, what number he feels like that happens at where it energetically starts to become too much? Just out of curiosity.
Adrian: Sure thing. So first of all, my friend's preference is really to work with people one on one. Or, um, you know, it's fine if it's like a couple, you know, like romantic couple or best friends or something like that. He's now gotten up to the point where he'll facilitate for people, let's say eight?
But again, those people are all like really close friends too. Um, Yeah. And he, he, when he does eight, he also has one person co facilitating with him or supporting him.
Danielle: Okay. Yeah. I think, first of all, it depends on what the person who is attending the retreat or ceremony [00:18:00] is looking for. Like, what are their intentions in general, because part of what I noticed from people who came through the retreat center that I worked at is that some of them truly were intending to make more connections and have, know, whether it's friendship or a spiritual community, community that they didn't necessarily have back home, that was part of what they were looking for.
And so in that case, it might not necessarily suit them, at least in that specific circumstance to do a one on one, right? They might be somebody who is more interested in having the group so that they can stay connected to them afterwards.
So of course, that's something to take into consideration. I would say that from my own personal experience, when I was in Costa Rica, my group was about 25 people.
And that was a little big just in the sense that even outside of the space of ceremony, [00:19:00] it was hard to actually connect with each and every person. So with, I think that the retreat, yeah, it was about like five or six days, that retreat, and so you're not necessarily going to connect with 25 people over the space of five days super well, which is fine, um, but I've tended to notice that just because this is part of the human experience, like once we're in a group that's over a certain amount, you do start to get these smaller groups that form.
And so that naturally happens. That being said, I will say, it's really interesting because that group of 25 was, again, like, one of the most incredible ayahuasca experiences that I've ever had.
And it definitely didn't affect me energetically in the sense of, like, not connecting with the medicine or being too overwhelming. It was incredible. We were outside. It was an open space. I think that that had a lot to do with it. I think that the group energy was really well connected and really [00:20:00] beautiful. So there's, there's so much that can be involved in how it all kind of plays out.
But what I experienced from witnessing the group dynamics when I worked at the ayahuasca retreat in Peru, is that we would normally have groups anywhere between the size of like, I think six. The very smallest group we ever had was like six. And then the biggest group we ever had was 18. And 18 was our max in terms of even just space in the temple.
And I always found that there was a little bit of a sweet spot between like 12 and 15. This is just what I witnessed.
In terms of a group dynamic, going anything or any number above 15, it just does start to get a little bit energetically intense in the space of ceremony. Like there's just more people, the connections aren't as strong as with one unified group.
But yeah, between like 12 and 15, I just found that the groups blended [00:21:00] so well together. They connected so well. There was a little bit more space in the ceremonies. So, I love that group dynamic because I just found that the connections they form with each other after that week go so deep.
Like, as if you've known these people for years rather than five days or seven days or whatever it is. So, that was something that was really profound to me. Like, as I mentioned earlier, as much as my own personal experiences with ayahuasca have been life changing, probably the greatest gift that I have actually received are the human connections that I have made from just the people that have come through that retreat space.
Adrian: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think also one thing for my friend, even though that is his preference, I think he could see that. I think his real concern is that if people have a lot of, if they're newer to the medicine, which when most people are newer to the medicine, they've got a lot of stuff to clear.
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: And so I think his point is more in those earlier [00:22:00] phases or if maybe trauma is very acute or something like that.
So yeah, it's case by case, but it also depends, like you said, what the person prioritizes. But I think it's really interesting that you mentioned the 12 to 15 number because I used to teach in middle and high school and so there was fluctuation kind of around different class sizes and a lot of times it would be 20 to 25.
And so teachers would talk about this, like what's the sweet spot? And a lot of women would say a similar number.
Danielle: Isn't that interesting?
Adrian: Like 12 to 15. Yeah.
And so yeah, there, there, there is something maybe kind of about that sweet spot where it's big enough where you're starting to get diversity of opinion, but when you really get big, you get more diversity, but then you also have fragmentation and it can be harder to create that cohesion in the group.
And you've got, you've got cliques, you know, um, and there's something that's just natural about that, but there can be, that can be tough with cohesion
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. The one other thing that I will just on the topic of groups, [00:23:00] this just of like sparked into my mind, but I would say one thing that can be a little challenging sometimes, and I don't think this is a bad thing, I actually think this can be a really good thing, but when you have that kind of group setting, oftentimes comparison comes up.
Like people comparing their journeys to someone else's journey, because the next day we always have group share. So people have the opportunity to, you know, express what happened in their journey and what came up for them.
And so if someone didn't get what they expected or had hoped for, or maybe their experience was really challenging and someone else's was beautiful and light, that comparison aspect can come into play.
Um, but again, I actually think that that can be a good thing. It allows us to like see that as it's coming up. So that's just something to note.
Adrian: Yeah. Yeah. And thinking that then there's supposed to be a right way, like, oh, I didn't have a lot of visions. You know, it wasn't some wild, you know, DMT sort [00:24:00] of, um, fractal geometry experience or whatever it was.
And some people are different, you know. Another friend of mine who facilitates, um, he says that actually it's really more kinesthetic for him and he doesn't necessarily have lots of strong visions and he's done the medicine many, many times.
So it really is different for different people and not putting it out there like there's supposed to be a right way. And I think I'm sure any good facilitator says that when they're leading the integration process, but it's still just very human to do that.
It's like in a yoga class, they say, don't compare. But that's very hard not to do when you're in that room, and it's something good about doing yoga by yourself, actually, you know, you just really don't have any temptation to do that,
Danielle: Yeah. 100%. What is your view on the visions, just out of curiosity? I would love to hear that.
Adrian: Yeah, and I would love to explore this with you. I think there's so much emphasis on it, understandably, I mean, there, they can be extremely spectacular.
And I guess I would say two things about it.
Number one, most importantly, to [00:25:00] emphasize up front, the real value of the medicine is really not about visions. It's really not about the visions. it's about the feeling that's underneath the visions. And I would also say even bigger picture, the real value in particular this medicine, ayahuasca, I think it's true for psychedelics, but it's really true for ayahuasca or analogs like Soma, where a lot of the values coming from the beta carbolines, it's the main reason I work with it isn't how I feel on the medicine, it's how I feel in the days and weeks afterwards.
Danielle: I love that. Yeah.
Adrian: You know, so I think that's what it's really about. And I've pointed people to these subtle body maps, you know, on the Sahaja Soma platforms, but I really think using that map of the subtle body that comes from yoga or that comes from Chinese medicine, we, there are these karmic knots that get stored in the energy channels, and this is just, not a literal map like science, but a way to describe what's happening.
Another way is simply to say that there are emotions stored in the body and what what the Harmala does, it opens those [00:26:00] energy channels and the DMT is the intelligence that flows through that. And so what happens with the visions is what gets released are our karmic impressions. You know fears, fantasies, could just be memories, you know, it could be traumas things like that.
And so the more and more of I work with the medicine over time, I find actually it becomes less about the visions and actually the sentient intelligence of the medicine. And I'm very visual, um, and I get spectacular visions a lot of the time. And I also have no problem saying. I love the visions. I love the visions. I love that. Like my, like upload my consciousness like into Tron, like that pure kind of like DMT sci fi. I love it when I get that journey.
But I think the teaching from like, again, like a meditative Dharma perspective, especially a tantric one, there's nothing wrong with pleasure. There's nothing wrong with visions. But don't grasp after them.
If you think that you're going to get them, or if you think that's what a good [00:27:00] journey is, or if you think they're going to stay, then you're going to suffer. So it's about everything with the medicine is about relaxing into it and letting go. So I think when you do it with that approach, it's okay to just enjoy it, but allow them to come and go.
But I find that the more that I work with it, the more the medicine is about emptying out into, we'd call it Dharmakaya in Vajrayana, but just the empty, open nature of awareness, and it becomes a lot less about the visions. Yeah.
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: What um,
Adrian: What are your thoughts?
Danielle: I, I agree with you. I think that one thing that we talked about where I worked is that oftentimes the visions can become a little bit of a distraction for people in terms of actually feeling what it is that is being experienced and kind of connecting to the deeper messages in that way.
And it's [00:28:00] funny because I've actually even talked to people where it was almost like in their own ayahuasca journey. She was attempting to kind of like, give them a message or say something, and then at the same time, the visions were trying to take them in a different direction. So it's almost like this game of where are you going to place your attention in that moment.
Adrian: Hmm.
Danielle: you know, it's like, it's an interesting thing. Um, but I think that there's like a beauty in all aspects of it. Like I've had the most profound, incredible, amazing visions where it's just so much fun and it's playful. And then I've also had visions where it was absolutely horrifying. But in that moment, the medicine was teaching me not to be attached to the visions and to just witness it without any kind of story being created about what I was seeing.
So Yeah, I think that there's like a beauty in all aspects of it. I'm pretty visual, like you said as well, so I haven't had as [00:29:00] many of the experiences where it's more like just feeling sense, unless I'm not super deep on the medicine. And the times where I just connected to it very subtly, it was a little bit more of like a feeling experience.
And that was really cool. But, yeah, I think it's just something where we, um, have the opportunity to not get attached and not have expectations.
Adrian: Yeah, I think that's, that's well said. And I think being with the feeling's really important. Like a lot of times that feeling for me, and it's subtle, but it can feel a little different with different DMT sources.
But, we'll use Chacruna as the frame of reference, because I think that's the main one for, for both of us.
I really feel a sense of like playfulness in Eros. It really is about opening to that sense of Eros, like aliveness and love. That chacruna brings that to me is is the real
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: Yeah.
Adrian: of it. Way more than how cool the fractal geometry is or or whatever, but also the other thing is, those [00:30:00] moments when basically the mind shatters, right, into a moment of non duality, right?
Just like no self, no thought. I'll have like, you know, it'll, it'll It'll be a thought and you'll just notice the thought will then just like shatter into space. That's the moment to just rest in that space, to rest in that space between the thoughts, just to rest in that empty awareness.
Like that is the moment when the medicine is really pointing to, I think our true nature. The true nature of the mind, and we can learn to, to recognize and stabilize that recognition just in ordinary life through meditation practice, but one gift of the medicine is that it makes that recognition a lot easier.
You know. It's just so potent and so I think that actually is is more of the gift than anything, you know. And then when people become familiar with that, they realize that non duality is not an experience that happens on psychedelics that [00:31:00] needs to be chased. That actually non duality is the nature of the mind in which all experiences happen all the time. It's just more obvious in that moment.
Danielle: Yeah, yeah. And so talk to me about that because one thing that was coming up for me while you were just speaking is this idea of like being in a space of using something like meditation to tap into these spaces versus using the plant medicines.
And then where is, where is the line in terms of having a healthy relationship with these plant medicines on an ongoing basis, versus what sometimes you do see happen with people, it's almost like they're chasing the experience. They're chasing, I don't want to say the high, but they're chasing like the visions or the journey, and they just keep going, going, going, and they're never really like necessarily settling into what you mentioned, which is like the piece that actually comes after the integration.
[00:32:00] Like, how do you view all of that?
Adrian: Yes. I'm so glad you asked this actually. So I recently heard a podcast with Raghu Markus who is one of the people who runs Ram Dass's Be Here Now Network. And Raghu was making a point similar to that you started to make, where he basically said he noticed that a lot of people with psychedelics, but in particular ayahuasca, they, they really want to keep going back to that place.
And I have to agree with it. You know, I think in particular with ayahuasca, there is something, it happens generally with psychedelics, but there's something about ayahuasca where people keep going back. And at the same time, there is something about this medicine, like if you look at people who are facilitators or whoever, like, it does ask to be kind of apprenticed with in an ongoing way, in a way that doesn't make sense.
So, how is it healthy for some people and not healthy for others? And I would say from a Buddhist perspective, it very much matters around right intention. So your intention matters. Also, the view. The [00:33:00] view for how you're approaching this matters.
And so how I view it as someone who practices already in a dharma and a yogic tradition specifically like on a Dzogchen path, I view this as one practice, one tantric practice within a path. Within a Dzogchen path or a Vajrayana path.
And so this can be an accelerator and it can be very helpful for that. But number one, would say, just discussing what we discussed, if you realize what you're having, that recognition of non duality, is something that can always be recognized, right? it's not something that has to happen on ayahuasca.
That already is sort of a change right there. But someone might ask, why do you keep working with it? You know, and I think that's a fair question. And I would say, for me, using the language of this tradition, how I make sense of it is, even if you've had that recognition of non duality, you know, basically the tradition would say you [00:34:00] want to stabilize that recognition. And so then you start to get curious, well, what is it that pulls me out of that stability of recognition?
We might say nowadays like, oh that really triggered me, right? That triggered my my samskaric knot my karmic knot, right? So what I find that's helpful about the medicine is that it really releases those karmic knots.
There's something number one that happens on a level that's just hard to describe conceptually. It's like there's just a releasing of those knots from the body, just like there is through yoga. And so, I find, and again, the reason I work with this medicine is to do it more and more how I feel off of it. I find that I'm more and more relaxed and rested and that kind of nature of mind.
And I actually started working with this medicine more intensively, in a period of time when I'd already been sitting lots of retreat, and meditation retreat, and I realized [00:35:00] I was at a point where I wanted to integrate this more in daily life. And I actually realized there was a problem with my approach to retreat.
Because the answer is always like we'll go on another retreat. And you're really practicing when you're on retreat, but unless you're really looking to be like an Olympian gold level Dzogchen master or like a monk like there's just other things I want to do with my life. I actually need an approach that isn't always about being on
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: Mm hmm.
Adrian: And so one thing that I found very helpful with this, it's like I was working with this medicine, and I had a sort of lifestyle where I could set aside time to be quiet and practice. But I was also still, you know, more in relationship, having friends, dating, going to the gym, having a career.
So it actually, to me, it's really allows for more integration. But I think that has a lot to do with where I was in my practice. How I relate to it, [00:36:00] my intention, and I'm sure there's some people would still think, oh, that guy drinks it too much and hey, that's fair. Maybe I do. Maybe I do.
But, um, I also think finally, I just want to acknowledge, cause I think sometimes it gets a bad rap in, in Buddhism, I also want to say there's nothing wrong with having a peak experience. Or there's nothing wrong with pleasure. Because a lot of people, if you look at it, what is a meaningful life to them, is when they look back on it, a lot of experiences.
you know, it's wow, I went on that trip or, I hiked that mountain. And a lot of people are like that. And a lot of people disproportionately are brought to more adventurous, you know, who are more
Danielle: Mm
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: hmm.
Adrian: to psychedelics.
So I just also want to say there's nothing wrong with that different kind of people have different personalities That's okay. I think the kind of metric though is How you're behaving in general in life, of course what your values, your priority, how grounded this person is and also is it [00:37:00] drawing you into deeper connection?
With yourself, with other people, with the environment. And is it helping you to live when you're off the medicine more in alignment with the kind of life you want to live?
So I think that's kind of the metric more than we can't just look at someone from the outside and say, it's hard to say they're drinking it too much or too little, unless they're starting to look a little unhinged or unethical or whatever.
Danielle: Mm hmm.
No, I
Ep 10 - Danielle 1: appreciate,
Danielle: I, I appreciate a lot what you said about, well you didn't say this word I don't think specifically, but like, balance in general, I think is huge part of it. And yeah, it depends so much on the individual person.
There could be someone who works with it in an ongoing practice for the rest of their life, but they have the intention, they have the balance, they're grounded.
I think being grounded is a huge piece of the equation in general, also in terms of integration. And, [00:38:00] um, I'd, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I do feel like sometimes when working with some of these things like ayahuasca, it can become a little bit ungrounding. If, um, other practices aren't in place.
And, you know, it's like, you're in the visions, you're in this like spiritual kind of realm. And if you're not also maybe connecting with nature or using your body in certain ways, like grounding yourself through physical practice. Cause I love to work out. I love to practice yoga and I find that those things are really grounding for me.
So I think that plays into it. Um, and I actually really This is like kind of going off topic, but I very much appreciate and value what you said about pleasure because I think that that is so true.
And again, it's like in this spiritual world, sometimes there's this aversion to pleasure. This idea that it's like bad and you know, we need to like put that over there
Adrian: We need to transcend [00:39:00] it because we're trying to transcend the body and then we get to our ultimate ideal of freedom.
Danielle: Yeah. yeah, And I just think that, like, there's a place for all of it.
And, one of the most profound experiences I ever had with ayahuasca was, like, so beautifully pleasurable.
And this is, again, like, slightly off topic, but I had a breathwork ceremony, like, a couple weeks ago. And what came up for me in that breathwork ceremony was that, for a really large portion of my life that I had been very judgmental towards myself about any form of receiving pleasure.
And it made me realize that not only was that associated with like my relationships, but also even my relationship with money, like not feeling worthy of receiving pleasure in that way and all of these different things. So it's all connected. And I think that, yeah, it's, it's important that we, feel worthy and safe of receiving pleasure, whether that's through, you know, a plant medicine ceremony [00:40:00] or relationships, our relationship with ourselves.
So yeah, I, I think that's a really powerful point.
Adrian: Yeah, and it's really a legacy, you know, I've reflect on this just studying a lot of different Indian traditions. So I've studied more in that context, but I've noticed that this is true cross culturally.
This gets mapped in terms of like archetypically like masculine and feminine approaches to religion. Meaning it's not about men and women and you know particular gendered bodies, even though that it seems that men are more associated with certain approaches to spirituality and that is, you have a lot of monastic celibate male orders that tended to really prioritize freedom and transcendence and there is a relationship to the body that this body is limited, it's mortal, it's something that we want to transcend.
And you know, it's when Tantra comes along, it's when we get a more feminine approach and more balanced masculine-feminine approach to spiritual practice that's actually about dance, movement, and embodiment, enjoyment. It's [00:41:00] about connection, not only freedom.
And it's about learning to sort of dance with that paradox instead of thinking that we're going to get to this ideal place.
And so I think that's a huge shadow of yogic traditions and of spiritual traditions generally. And it's interesting, even in, Vajrayana, which is tantric, and it is so balanced in so many ways, it reflects the early ascetic origins of that tradition, which sort of value this kind of perfect completion.
We want to bring the story to an end. It's just about contents. It's just about consciousness arising and passing away. We don't want to chase anything, but life's also about, you don't want to grasp, right, we want equanimity, but we also want to enjoy ourselves.
And we see that a little bit more with some like Hindu tantric traditions, but that's really deeply embedded, I think, with a lot of approaches to spirituality. And I think a lot of things with the medicine, perhaps we can talk about this, a lot of what it's doing, it's, it's deprogramming us.
Danielle: Mm hmm.
Adrian: I think a lot of the spiritual paths [00:42:00] about unlearning a lot of things. I'm curious if that resonates at all with you.
Danielle: It absolutely does. Yeah. The unlearning aspect.
One of the things that's been really interesting about my personal journeys with ayahuasca is, and I feel like this is part of the unlearning, but like, oftentimes I've gone into it with a certain intention that I thought was going to go in a very specific direction, and then Ayahuasca just kind of like kicked my ass and showed me that that was in no way, shape, or form what needed to happen. And that my mindset around that intention was, I don't want to say wrong because they're like, there's no right or wrong, but she just showed me such a different perspective. And I'll give you an example of this.
So, So I had had some really rough journeys, just like super, super challenging and I was pretty exhausted. And so I went into the next experience and I was like, okay, what can I have as an intention for this journey that will hopefully just be a [00:43:00] little bit easier? Um, which like the thought that I even had that intention, I laugh at myself now, but
Yeah, so I was like, what could be better than unconditional love?
I'm going to go into this journey just with the intention to experience unconditional love. And how, like, how could that go wrong? So for the next, you know, six hours basically of my ceremony, I was just being shown the like, worst side of the human experience. Like the most, the atrocities that have been experienced over the course of history, war, genocide, murder, rape, like, and I was experiencing all of it as if it was just eternal.
And at the end of my ceremony, I kind of had this like voice of mother ayahuasca come in and she's like, if you want to experience unconditional love, you have to love all of that [00:44:00] because that is unconditional love. There's no conditions to any of it. So are you willing to step into that space? And I was like, oh my goodness, that like kind of shook my whole view of this very like, rose colored idea of what unconditional love actually means.
So yeah, it's this breaking down of these kind of like preconceived notions of what we have of everything and just shifting perspective. Like that's been one of the biggest pieces for me with ayahuasca, is just shifting my perspective around so many things and being able to view it in a different way that I would not have probably viewed it otherwise.. So I don't know if that just went in a totally different direction, but yeah,
Adrian: Well, you're welcome to throw it out there. Listeners to this podcast will be used to it going in totally different directions.
So I just interviewed someone on ADHD and psychedelics and we both had ADHD and the conversation was great, but it was all over the place
Danielle: all
Adrian: I
was, [00:45:00] at one point I
was like trying to steer it and I was like, no, it's, of course it's supposed to be all over the place.
It's two people with ADHD talking about ADHD, so it makes sense.
So don't worry. You're welcome to have as many sidetracks as you want. We'll keep coming back.
Oh, You mentioned at the beginning, one question that you get a lot Oh, yeah. who look at your channel is about how to work with fear. Mm hmm. what you just shared coming up in your journey.
So i'd like to ask you, you know, how do you coach people or how did you coach people when you were in that setting to work with fear and just with really challenging feelings and moments during journeys on the medicine?
Danielle: That's been a really big part of my own experience because not only did a lot of journeys involve, like, really deep rooted fear, but also for a period of time after my time working at the ayahuasca retreat, I kept having fear resurface a lot.
So in that kind [00:46:00] of time of integration, and it was probably two years, honestly, if I like really look at the whole picture, it would just, it would come out of nowhere.
It was like, I would be in. doing my normal thing, not thinking about plant medicine, not having any of these thoughts and all of a sudden this really deep fear would kind of rise up. It would happen a lot at night. It would happen a lot like as I was falling to sleep or falling asleep.
So yeah, I've had like quite the relationship with fear in the past couple of years and when it came to ayahuasca specifically, really the biggest lesson that she really showed me was just being the witness. Like truly just being the observer to what is coming up rather than, like I said, creating any kind of story around it.
Because with the most challenging vision kind of experience that I ever had, as I was going into it, I was so deeply connected to what was happening, I was creating so many [00:47:00] stories about it, I was just kind of almost narrating in my mind what was happening in the journey.
And so it was, it was, a very fearful experience because I was making it real. I was creating a story around it. I was saying that it was what was true.
And the next time that I worked with ayahuasca, she actually put me right back into that exact same situation, but for for whatever reason, the narrative was not there. Like the story wasn't there and I was purely just the witness, just observing what was happening, and so there was no fear. It was just, like, me watching you right now, and so, moving forward, that, like, remembrance, that recognition that when I can tap into the space of being the witness, there doesn't have to be any fear associated with it, has been really powerful for me.
And another really big [00:48:00] piece, and this didn't happen until, yeah, really like years later and just with integration is just the recognition that like, we don't have to be afraid of fear.
Like there's just kind of this idea that it's fear. So it's scary and it should be shunned and I don't want to experience it. And it just kept coming up for me so often that I really had to sit with it and kind of like form a relationship with fear that was just an allowance of the fact that it was happening and not judging it and just yeah, I mean literally just kind of bearing witness to it.
I used to feel a lot of shame around darkness and have since recognize that there is like beauty and value in all of it. Like the darkness is not bad. There's, like you said, this duality, oftentimes, where we think the light is good and the darkness is bad. And I've come to really believe that, like, it's all one thing.
I [00:49:00] actually see a lot of value in the darkness and what comes from that and what we learn from that. So, it's just been navigating that relationship.
But, yeah, I think the biggest piece is just if people can go into an ayahuasca journey or just life in general, being the witness rather than creating the stories, that that makes a big difference.
Adrian: Yeah. No, what you described is, is totally in line with my understanding as well, which is just, I think the really the big teacher of the medicine is about nonresistance.
Danielle: Mm hmm.
Adrian: And so what it will do is, well, part of it, it's clearing us out those channels, right? And it's clearing us out into just that open, empty clarity of awareness, which when we learn to rest more and more in that nature of mind, naturally, these other qualities come forward, like loving kindness, compassion, equanimity.
Right. But, it will test us, you know, and it'll test us by seeing if we're attached to pleasant experiences. And then [00:50:00] it'll, bring up darkness. Right. And I feel that it'll bring me into that kind of space and it helps to use different archetypes to like relate to it and be like, Oh, I can feel this is like Kali energy.
This is dark, you know, it's that destructive and it's just testing me, and I might notice if there's again, even in the body, not even maybe just, just a thought. And if you alluded to this, if there's thinking you can also just remember to drop thinking and allow attention to be in the body.
But there can be subtle resistance like a contraction in the body and then just trying to allow it. And we can allow it by, you talked about like getting curious about it.
So I might ask the medicine, okay, like, what do you have to teach me? Like, what do you want to show me or like inviting Kali in or whatever it is.
But I just find when I open to it, that energy starts to move. And eventually that darkness turns into the light, but it's like the medicine just wants to test me [00:51:00] to see if I'm resisting it. And then it'll reward me with, with something else usually, if I really surrender. It's all a teaching and impermanence, right? You can just ask yourself like, let's get curious about this. Let's see if this stays.
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: But remembering to do that when it's pleasant too. Okay. This is, this is wonderful, let's if this lasts, you know, watch this. We'll change too.