Ayahuasca Ceremonies: Prep, Safety, & Integration Part 2
Episode Summary:
Episode 11 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma is part two of a conversation with shamanic Reiki master healer, Danielle Rateau. This episode explores Danielle's holistic healing journey, including her work at an ayahuasca center in the Sacred Valley, Peru and her expertise in Reiki. Adrian and Danielle dive into the the details of working with ayahuasca including the often-overlooked importance of preparation before ceremonies, the impact of relaxing and somatically connecting with the experience, the role of set and setting on ayahuasca journeys, and of course, the importance of community and integration post-ceremony.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
05:21 Meditation, the Nervous System and Preparation For Ayahuasca Ceremonies
14:01 Surrendering and Having Faith In The Medicine
22:50 Set and Setting in Psychedelic Experiences
33:33 Balancing Silence and Music in Ceremonies
37:23 Community and Connection in Integration
Guest Bio:
Danielle Rateau has been dedicated to the path of holistic healing since 2017. After two years living and working at an eco yoga community in Australia, she traveled the world exploring different healing modalities. In 2022, she worked at an Ayahuasca retreat in the Sacred Valley of Peru, where she deepened her understanding of Shamanism and healing with plant medicine.
As a Shamanic Reiki master practitioner, Danielle offers distance healings through her practice, Soul Embodied Reiki & Energy Healing. Through YouTube, she shares videos about personal growth, spirituality, holistic healing, and Reiki/ASMR.
Full Transcript
Adrian: Hi, I'm your host, Adrian Baker, and welcome to Redesigning the Dharma.
Danielle and I connected recently after I became aware of her YouTube channel, where she provides some helpful resources for people who are preparing for or integrating ayahuasca journeys.
Even though that's not Danielle's work now, she has worked at an ayahuasca center in this conversation Sacred Valley of Peru for over a year, and I thought just that a dialogue, between the two of us might offer an interesting perspective for some of the listeners of the audience. So, Danielle and I decided to record a podcast together and that's what you'll be listening to here.
Danielle has been dedicated to the path of holistic healing since 2017. After two years living and working at an eco yoga community in Australia, she traveled the world exploring different healing modalities.
In 2022, she worked at an ayahuasca retreat in the Sacred Valley of Peru, where she deepened her understanding of shamanism and healing with plant medicine. As a shamanic Reiki master practitioner, Danielle offers distant healings through her practice, soul embodied Reiki and energy healing.
Through YouTube, she shares videos about personal growth, spirituality, holistic healing, and Reiki ASMR. So with that said, please enjoy this conversation with Danielle Rateau.
Danielle: and I think this is like a good little segue as well into, we touched on this a little bit, but the concept of relaxation, because I think that that's another really big piece of it is, um, And I think, I think this is what you were saying in one of your Instagram stories is like the concept of tapping into relaxation in preparation of the ceremony is a really big piece.
So I would love to hear your perspective on that. But I think oftentimes people don't place a lot of intention on the preparation piece. It's more so just the ceremony itself and then integration afterwards. So yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Adrian: Well, I really agree with you in terms of there's a lot of talk about integration, but not enough about preparation. And you're about to do this really intense journey, like makes sense you'd want to prepare for that,
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: you know,
Danielle: I was just a little bit.
Adrian: right? You know, I think actually one really most important thing to me, my bias is meditation yoga background, is meditation and also yoga, but just some kind of somatic awareness practice coupled with the view, right?
So, my tradition they'll say meditation without the view is like one leg without the other. They'll say that in a lot of Vajrayana or Dzogchen traditions.
And so having this kind of map of the minds, like the mind is like a mirror. Everything that's happening is just our appearances in the mirror. Awareness is like the sky and that you have these passing clouds of thoughts, feelings, sensations, and just noticing and resting in that. You know, as the loving awareness that can notice all this come and go, without being identified with it.
So having that view, but then it's a practice, and the more that you do it over and over and over again, it's a training of your mind. That the more you'll be able to do that during a journey.
And there are times that the medicine is strong enough, all I can do is surrender, it's not like I can do some of these other things Okay techniques or have some recognition I'm having normally on meditation, but if it's just that feeling of, of, of totally surrendering.
So I think that is the most important thing I emphasize. The other thing that I think is really helpful, which you really don't hear this in ayahuasca circles, and I understand why, but the way that my friend who facilitates, Ronan and I, first of all, even when we take the medicine, what we do is we separate the two plants, very rare.
So we take Harmala first and then we feel that and make sure that we're not nauseous, then we take DMT. So we're not nauseous in the middle of the DMT trip. But also part of the benefit is that grounds us first and then we'll take the DMT, but, so that's one technique, but another thing is just working with Peganam Harmala or the copy vine by itself, in the days and in weeks leading up to the journey...
and we should say at this point the standard disclosure of you know, none of this is medical advice, this is we're sharing our experiences, education, and everyone needs to check the many contraindications for MAOIs, you know.
But I personally find that there's incredible benefit In working with Peganam Harmala by itself and copy would afford the same thing, but that deep kind of relaxation.
Well, just that the Harmala will naturally relax the body more and more and more and when you start to couple that with doing meditation, doing guided meditations or like yoga nidra on Harmala, what you're doing is you're building a foundation going into the journey so that then when you introduce the DMT, you're way more relaxed and you're way more grounded.
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: and then keep doing that afterwards as well for the integration.
Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. I think like on the concept of relaxation, I think a lot about like the state of our nervous system. I feel like for you, for example, how long have you been meditating? Remind me again?
Adrian: I mean, I started in 2010, but I really got serious about it probably like 2015 around there
Danielle: So like you probably have a relatively regulated nervous system. Um,
Adrian: for someone with ADHD. Yes.
Danielle: Yeah. And I think, you know, absolutely like there are people out there who going into a ayahuasca retreat or plant medicine ceremony, maybe they have been meditating for years. Maybe they have been practicing yoga, but there are a lot of people who haven't.
Like I met a lot of people who, have never meditated, had never practiced yoga. And so it's very possible that they're coming into this experience with, especially if you're, you know, from the United States or from one of these Western countries where life is stressful and hectic. And we have very dysregulated nervous systems overall, I would say.
Um, that to work with something as powerful as ayahuasca with an already dysregulated nervous system, I think that sometimes that can actually shake things up a little bit. And then if somebody doesn't know how to then integrate it afterwards and they don't know how to continue to balance their nervous system, they might actually cause more harm than good.
And I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Adrian: Well, absolutely. I agree with you that some people just might not be ready to do it. And there's a certain amount of preparation work. And this is part of why I do the coaching that do is I really emphasize like, don't jump right into it per se, you know, like a lot of people need to prep first.
And I'm really glad that you mentioned the point about in this culture in the US or in the West and it can be other countries too.
I think any country that's very workaholic Japan or Korea or Singapore or somewhere like that. Yeah, my biggest hack is living in Thailand
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: You know that in and it makes me think back like I remember a meditation teacher from the U.S. said this once he's like he talked was talking about relaxation, he's like, okay great, now, how do I do that?
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: And it's like It's like but this isn't the kind of thing relaxation isn't like something that like, okay, sweet I'm gonna read like Tim Ferriss his blog and like optimize like what's the 20 the 80 20 like hack for like relaxing? It's like no actually like, relaxation comes from like taking a backward step and just letting go,
Danielle: yeah.
Adrian: and emptying out. And just being and not just doing.
And so, that kind of, that ability to sort of toggle between being and doing, that takes some practice. And it's really getting comfortable maybe not just with meditation, maybe like learning to just take a walk in nature, in silence.
Learning to sit in silence or maybe be with someone else also in silence. Just stillness and silence a lot to counterbalance how much movement there is here And then it can also be diet as well. Paying attention to stimulants. Are you drinking too much coffee? Are you getting too much artificial light? Your sleep? All that stuff.
But no, I think that's really, really important. And I think it's a tricky one in terms of when people should wait to do the medicine or not.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah.
Adrian: Because some people, I agree along the lines of what we're discussing, they should wait to settle and ground a little bit.
But a lot of people, a lot of people, if you tell them like, oh, you know, wait and you should meditate for three months and then you'll be ready to do ayahuasca, which in a lot of ways, I think it'd be ideal to do that for longer than three months.
But you know what? Many people like me included, I never would have gotten into Buddhism and meditation if I hadn't have gotten into psychedelics first.
And that's true for a lot of people who are into meditation. Sam Harris says that. So, that's a tricky one.
I also can't tell people categorically like, oh no, you shouldn't do it because you haven't prepped enough. But I think the nervous system thing is one good thing to pay attention to along with, um, in terms of just how you you know, are you feeling a little more settled?
And also just the standard thing about checking in with a psychiatrist. If you have any mental health issues, that might be a, a red flag there, Bipolar, Schizophrenia in your family or something like that.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I
Adrian: What are your thoughts on that?
Danielle: yeah. Well, I mean, for the retreat center that I worked at, schizophrenia was pretty much the only hard no when it came to contraindications.
I think with bipolar, it was more so like, what is your history in terms of like your experience with it? Where are you at now? What have the past couple years looked like? So that was a little bit more of a conversation with our like medical specialist.
But the only time that I ever saw, and this was this was so challenging to witness, but with ayahuasca specifically, I wouldn't say that I ever saw an actual mental health break, um, with any ceremony or anything like that The only time that I ever witnessed that was actually with Bufo. And I can't remember if we talked about this...
Adrian: I can't remember but I'm not surprised that Bufo could present more risk there.
Danielle: Yeah. So that was, and, and for anyone who's not familiar,
Ep 10 - Adrian 2: Oh, actually
Adrian: you did tell me this were combining it with Ayahuasca as
Danielle: Oh yeah. Yeah. Because the way that, the way that the retreat was where
Ep 10 - Adrian 2: So
Adrian: let's not blame it all on Bufo. I mean, that's
Danielle: no, no. Yeah. Valid, valid point.
Because we had the ayahuasca ceremonies and then bufo and wachuma, which is a cactus medicine, so mescaline.
And yeah, the only time that I ever saw like a really serious incident arise in the retreat where I worked was with bufo. But like you said, it, who's to say if there was something to be said about the combination of different medicines but it was like a full on psychological break so that was really, really challenging to witness.
But yeah, with ayahuasca specifically, the thing that's so fascinating is like, I always have to kind of remind myself that really I know nothing because I can look back at my own experience with ayahuasca and think like, well, maybe if I had done this or done that, or, you know, things would have been easier or I would have integrated better or whatever it is But at the same time like the perspective I have now looking back is that everything worked out exactly as it was meant to, and it was so perfect.
So even when other people ask me for My opinion or advice, I want to be really cautious of that because I don't have that answer for them necessarily. And they might not even... not like none of us may have the perspective right now to know, five years from now looking back, like how it's all going to play out.
So...
Adrian: Yeah, holding it lightly and I, I tend to agree with you, like, and I've experienced that especially working with this medicine, like there's an incredible intelligence, but I think it's also just showing you that the universe normally has an intelligence.
I think Ramdas would say, you know, the universe is providing us the perfect curriculum to wake up, and we are receiving that when we know how to open to it and relate to it with a curious sort of open inquiry.
And I think that's generally good advice as long as someone isn't using that as kind of a bypass. Like if they really harmed somebody else or or themselves and they're saying that in a way to like not take responsibility for it or even if they apologize but like, they really hurt someone like it just shouldn't be said someone else or to diminish someone else's what they did. But otherwise if that's not present, I do think that is generally sort of true.
And even when we do harm people out of ignorance, it's also just we need to do what we need to do to apologize and make amends, but part of forgiveness I think comes through understanding karma and not self and realizing that a lot of times when things play out, you know, it doesn't make it right, but hurt people react inappropriately out of their own past and the ways in which were hurt and you know, their conditioning.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the concept of like, we're all doing the best we can with the level of consciousness that we're at in this moment, but also not using that as an excuse, like you said. Yeah.
Adrian: Yeah. And you just touched on something very important there, which is I think the topic of faith and trust.
And I think this is what makes working with the medicine a lot easier with time. And I actually remember I really had to revisit faith when I was on this, long meditation retreat.
I was on a six week meditation retreat at Spirit Rock. And it was like, I was just the first couple of weeks were good. I was deepening into it. And then around the, like in the third week, like I was like, oh, like the boredom was just, it was really tough and I, I had to read, I started reading, which of course not supposed to do that on a Theravada retreat but if it's a skillful means for helping you get through it, I think it's fair.
Sharon Salzberg has a very good book on faith and she talked about faith in the Buddhist tradition and it's not blind faith. It's the kind of faith that comes from direct experience.
And I've really found that to be true. It requires maybe an initial willingness to try. But, when I applied the teachings and when I did the practice, I was like, oh, wow, gradually more and more like this really works. And that builds up trust path and the teachings and the practice.
And the same thing is also true with this medicine, with ayahuasca, with Soma. It's really realizing the more and more you work with the medicine, that it is a incredibly intelligent and ultimately loving plant teacher that, you know, wants what's best for you. And it wants you to wake up to your own interdependence with everything and your true nature.
And so if I have a difficult journey, I never have that like, Oh no, like this isn't, I don't have that like this isn't supposed to be happening
Ep 10 - Adrian 2: or
Adrian: I shouldn't have taken this or, I doubt now this medicine or this path because of it.
And so I think building that trust, it's something that, can only happen with time. But I actually think a very important thing that helps build that is starting slow and starting slow with the dosage. And that's something actually, this is a good chance to talk about set and setting because this is very tricky to do in a lot of ayahuasca ceremonies because you don't know the dosage.
so. You don't. Which, if you think about it, I think every group I've ever been in, religious groups, psychedelic groups, has its own dogma unconventional wisdom and you're kind of not supposed to challenge it.
And I think part of that in the ayahuasca circles that I've heard is like, oh, the dose that you get, like, It's, it's the dose that you're supposed to get. It's like the medicine knows... well, the medicine knows when you drink it, but like, like how much are you taking is up to you and the facilitator. There's also discernment.
And if you went to a mushroom ceremony, no one would say, how much should I take? I don't know. And like, stick your hand in the back of mushrooms and just like, you know, take a fistful and like that's the right amount. No, they'd be like, okay, when you take five grams of dried mushrooms of this strain, ballpark, every journey is different, but it'll produce this effect.
Three grams, this one gram this... it's also true for other psychedelics, including ayahuasca.
so, and different people have different sensitivities to beta carbolines, and so I was blown away by how strong Peru was and so I was very reluctant to work with it again. And so when I found my friend Ronan and he said we'll we'll calibrate it to you individually. The dosage should be different for everyone.
And what I said was I want to start out very slow. And I drank it slowly and literally I didn't even feel it much the first few times I drank it.
And he said, do you want another dose? And I said, no, that's okay. I'm going to take whatever I'm supposed to take. And if I don't feel it, I'm going to work my way up. And I gradually over a number of ceremonies worked my way up to it.
And I think that's really important instead of, taking a cup. You don't know how much is in it. They put a ton of chacruna in it because they know Westerners fly down to Peru and they're like, oh, they're, they're coming for the firework show.
And so we're going to load up a bunch of chacruna in there. And, and then you're, you're blown away and you're kind of, you're, it's too much,
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: know, you're, you're sort of like shell shocked.
And so I think that's a really important part of building trust. I'm curious your thoughts on that in terms of dosage and why ayahuasca centers somehow think that like in your, in your experience, did they stand, did they cater individually to people or, or what was the, the way people related to that?
Danielle: Yeah, well, I'll just give you like a very brief little breakdown of how it worked for us, just to put into perspective.
So, we had three ayahuasca ceremonies where I worked, and obviously that's super dependent on the center as well. Like, some in a week only have two, some have five. You know, some are like ten day retreats where they have maybe six or seven ceremonies.
So, um, I will say right off the bat, like I think it can be a little bit challenging when someone, at least who's never worked with plant medicine before or ayahuasca before goes and just does a one night ceremony or even like a two night ceremony because it doesn't really allow for a lot of flexibility to take it slow.
Because it's like, oh, I only have one night, like, let's do this thing. So, I think there's something to be said for if it is your first experience having enough time to ease your way into it.
With the three night setup that we had usually the first night was two cups optional. So you'd have the first cup and then there was an optional second cup to go in and get a little bit more if that was necessary.
And like you said there isn't really much of a checking in with each individual person. It was more so this is the standard amount of medicine that we start with, with the first cup on the first night and then we'll see how everyone responds to that and whether or not they come and ask for that second cup, that will kind of determine what they're going to start with tomorrow.
If they don't come and get that second cup then we know that either they're good with that amount or we need to cut it back a little bit, so it's very much this test to just see what happens after the first night.
Um, I've, I know like for my own first experience in Costa Rica, it was more so intuitive by the shamans. Like it seemed like they were literally just pouring a different amount for every single person who went up.
So I wouldn't say that I am like qualified to say what the proper way should be in terms of how that works, but I will say like, um, It was a little bit challenging to have it just kind of be this test because oftentimes the first night for people was just, it was all over the place.
Some people experienced nothing. Some people it was too strong. Some people it was just this very like physical purge. So it tended to be the second night where we had a little bit more clarity around like what really was going to work for that person.
And then by the third night, like you've really got it kind of hammered down and figured out but yeah, it was just a little bit of a test. Um, but it is challenging when people are coming to these retreats like you said, because they really want to like feel it and get into the, the juice of it as quickly as possible.
Like people aren't necessarily super patient when it comes to the retreat space, so yeah, it's interesting
Adrian: Yeah, and that's also why it's helpful to have a view and a path think about these qualities we need to cultivate. And one of them is patience. Learning to be more patient with the medicine.
Yeah. I think one thing that's challenging about that too, is you might think you could watch someone, like I'm thinking about as people were coming up to the shaman and oh, uh a man who weighs 220 pounds would require more than a woman who weighs 140 or whatever.
Yeah, there's something natural, intuitive about that. There's probably some truth to it, but people also just have different beta carboline sensitivities for other reasons. I mean I've met very small, thin women who just require a very high level of beta carbolines and the reverse is, is true.
So, I really think, and this is part of the reason as well, you asked about Ronan in the groups, it's not just managing people, it's actually because he caters the medicine so much to each individual.
And you can imagine if you had to do different doses and remember that for 30 people, right?
But he really believes in how important that is to just make sure that each person, um, has that adjusted to them. So they feel the Harmala, but then they're not like incredibly nauseous like taking DMT and then experiencing that all at once.
It's really important to dial into that and that's also something you can dial into more if you're working with the beta carbolines by yourself beforehand.
So on the topic of set and setting still and it relates actually back to something you said at the beginning of the conversation when you described how different your journeys were in different settings in Costa Rica, in Mexico, and then in Peru. And, acknowledging that psychedelic journeys will just vary naturally.
Danielle: Um Yeah.
Adrian: I know, cause we've talked about this a little bit before you thought that it might have something to do with the setting as well, and I'm wondering if you can describe, give people a little bit of a appreciation for how even within an indigenous container and your experience, there's, you know, different drives and different approaches and how that can affect the journey in different ways.
And just talking about perhaps what you learn from that experience.
Danielle: Yeah. absolutely. Yeah. And it really, it actually does make such a difference, the set and setting.
And I think that if I had only ever had my experiences in Peru, I wouldn't have recognized this as much because my journeys looked one very specific way, working at this specific center with Shipibo shamans, like those were my darker journeys, honestly.
And you and I touched on this a little bit as well, like sometimes there is a little bit of a darker aspect to the direction that the Shipibo shamans will take. It's like the, the, benefit of going into the darkness, they really value that.
But there's also something to be said about the fact that, the center that I worked at, we had our ceremonies in an enclosed space.
So it was, it was like walls, ceiling, you were not allowed to go outside during the ceremony for like safety reasons specifically.
And so there was just a really different energy compared to when I was in Costa Rica. And we had, it was like a maloca, so we had a ceiling, but all of the walls were open. It was just this, incredible nature, jungle surrounding us on all sides. And they were not Shipibo shamans.
The shamans that I worked with actually, were from Israel. I think I mentioned that to you, with my Costa Rica experience. And that was the just most playful, light, safe feeling that I've ever had in my entire life. So like I said, opposite ends of the spectrum.
So for me personally, you know, I think that there's something to be said about being as close to nature as possible. Like that's really really powerful for me having that kind of open space, having the fresh air coming in like it's a little bit more, at least for me, it's a little bit more freeing and I think it allows the medicine to move more freely through me as well.
Danielle: So that I found to be really interesting and I know that that's not the case for everyone. Like there were plenty of people who came to the center that I worked at in Peru who had these just light, really playful experiences, right? So that could also just be part of my journey.
Um, and so I think part of it is experimentation. It's like allowing ourselves to kind of have different, um, journeys in different spaces and actually kind of see what resonates with us.
Adrian: Yeah, I very much relate to what your view and your experience was. Yeah. when I went to Peru and I did it and it was a Shipibo, you know, um, tradition and, does color it in a very, you know, dark way.
And you know, the medicine a lot of times when I start to describe this to people, they're like well It's supposed to be dark, the medicines working on the unconscious, it's like that's absolutely true and if there's something you're hiding from, just like our conversation from earlier, the medicine will hone in on it, it'll test you that.
It's also just to acknowledge that the set and setting just as it applies for every other psychedelic, Ayahuasca is not an exception. It also applies for that too.
And if you're in a maloca where there is a shaman who is doing chants that they believe in calling in more of like spirits and in darkness and work in the shadow, and you're around 30 other people who are like puking and going through their trauma, that's going to feel different than if you were outside with just the facilitator or with a small group of your closest friends in nature, like period. I don't care if you're doing LSD, ayahuasca, whatever.
could swap out the medicine, the set and the setting is going to color that in a different way. And I guess to me, it's just my personal view, and I would walk out of the maloca a lot. I for one thing, I really am sensitive to smoke and tobacco. And I just like, I couldn't breathe in there.
And facilitators are like asking me to come back in. I was like, no, like I'm good. I'm out here. I'm underneath the stars. Like this is exactly where I want to be. So any psychedelic to me is about a direct connection to, you can say the divine, you can just say the universe. I want to be in nature on it. And, it's not an experience that I personally want mediated for me. And just me.
And this, this actually goes back to the discussion we had about fear earlier. Um, and I just want to say this because I guess the container to me is also connected to my view and I just want to emphasize it's not about right or wrong, I'm just sharing my personal view and just speaking from my own personal experience.
There seems to be a belief with some people that the medicine has to be directed. Whether it's calling in spirits or that there's energy, that this intelligence has to be guided and directed and in my experience, the medicine does not have to be directed and that in fact the entire teaching of the medicine is about non resistance.
It is completely about surrendering, opening up and letting go. And instead of pushing something away, like if you're having a difficult experience, like, in fact, using, a tantric Tibetan practice like Chöd or, you know, Lama Tsultrim developed a modern version of it called Feeding Your Demons, like asking this vision, like, okay, what do you have to teach me? Or like letting that literally personification of a fear or whatever, like devour you, right?
And doing that because what it is, is you're going into things. You're moving towards your fears. You're not pushing it away. You're not asking someone else to try to move it for you. And to me, that is the whole teaching of the medicine, so that's why I really just resonate with a different container.
In a lot of ways, when someone's doing that, they're... maybe for some people that I could see how they benefit from that introductory, but it is also delaying the opportunity to practice moving into that.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah.
Adrian: but, but you need to have a view and a preparation for that upfront.
And if you don't, it would be tricky, but I'm curious how that your, your reaction to that.
Danielle: Yeah. I love it.
Um, I think for some people also they just appreciate feeling safe and held, especially if the first time that they've ever worked with any of these medicines.
Like, they don't necessarily even want to be in a space of like, let me step into my inherent power and I'm going to do on my own. Like they really want to feel held and safe and know that somebody is there for them. And I think that there's absolutely a time and a place for that.
Um, and I probably, really benefited from having that for the time that I did, so I think it's like really knowing ourselves and knowing what we need in that moment.
Like for me personally, I resonate a lot now with what you're saying about kind of having an opportunity to not necessarily be in a space where someone else might be directing the medicine.
It's interesting cause it actually reminds me a lot of Reiki. Cause I'm a Reiki practitioner. And the idea with energy healing and Reiki in general is I'm the channel and the conduit, but I'm not directing the energy anywhere.
It is its own divine intelligence. It is much smarter than I am in that aspect.
So I can, you know, be in my ego and think that I'm sending this Reiki energy to this person's, you know, stomach or whatever it may be. And the energy itself might, from a higher level of intelligence, know that where it needs to go is actually, you know, whatever it is, their crown or their feet or, um, it just has a higher level of intelligence than what we are tapping into in our minds.
So it, I think of that, honestly, it's like the same kind of concept. So yeah, yeah. I resonate with that a lot.
Adrian: Yeah. and And I would also build on what you just said in saying, it is this divine higher intelligence. And I mean, I think that's also part of the argument for why though it shouldn't be directed. It's because a human being can't improve upon that intelligence.
You know, but I can also totally appreciate that, you know, it can be skillful just to have, and it might not even be
One approach can be the shaman directing it, but another approach can be, even if someone who's a facilitator, and I also want to say there should always be a safe space, and people should feel safe.
So whether it's a shaman directing it, or whether it's, if it's a facilitator inviting people to be in silence, you want someone who's creating a safe space and people feel safe.
But it could also be and I work with another facilitator who, he's a facilitator, not a shaman, but he'll play music,
Danielle: Oh,
yeah, yeah. Mm
Adrian: And it's just sort of like background, like vibration and different things that move, and then he'll sprinkle in different teachings.
And you can pick like, it'll be Tibetan Book Of The Dead, and Mahamudra or you can have different traditions like Sufi teachings, and so that's another way in which he's not directing it, but it's not also just people sitting in silence.
There is some kind of, you know, allowing music to move that energy, having certain teachings to guide you.
So I think in having worked with two facilitators who have these two different approaches like that versus silence, I can see number one, how they're both great, and I can also see how that kind of music with the teachings can really be helpful for people who are newer to it and specifically someone who's newer and they don't have some kind of like solid background in meditation or something like that.
Danielle: And music can be so powerful for moving the direction of the medicine. Like, know if you've, I have had so many wild experiences where either with icaros, which are like the medicine songs that the Shipibos might be singing in ceremony, or when I've been in ceremony and they haven't necessarily been singing icaros, but they've been playing live music or playing medicine songs.
You know, a new icaros or a new song starts and it just shifts the energy so drastically with the medicine. So yeah, it's super powerful.
I also think that music and sound in general is very, very powerful with integration and that process.
So that's been one of the most powerful forms of integration for me and also using my own voice singing. Um, it's like a whole other conversation I know, but yeah, music is huge and sound and, sound healing really powerful.
Adrian: Singing is great. And also that's part of the gifts of the medicine, it can open people up to that, flow of creative intelligence through us. And in my experience, it can help people to dial into what is right for them. So maybe like actual icaros will come through, but it might be a musical instrument.
You know, like one friend started playing the flute. For me it's dance. You know, it's different things for different people.
And I also want to make also one distinction, I think with music and the medicine, and I think it's relevant.
I think a lot of times, the way when I start to the value I see in silence, and this is also Ronan's view is...
The value in being in silence is when the medicines in the earlier phases, and if it's one of those journeys actively trying to teach you something.
Music can be great, but I, and I did try this, I tried music and no music, and did, it did open me to his view that outside sound, music can subtly... It will influence the medicine and you can also miss out on some subtle things that might be trying to teach you.
But I also want to say, like, I really love music on the medicine. Like I'll either put music on when I'm listening to the medicine, or I loved when I was in those group settings and people, you know, would sing, would sing icaros.
I guess for me, it's a lot of times, I think it can be great after like the really intense part of the journey has passed.
And I sort of have received that teaching, that more subtle teaching, and then, um, it can move the energy flip through, or if I drink a second round, maybe for the second round, then I'll take it then.
But I also appreciate that might be for people who are a little more experienced. I just want to throw that view out there for people that, you know, sometimes maybe that's some of the benefit is in the silence, there can be subtle teachings that are allowed to sort of flourish, but, I love music.
Danielle: Me too. Me too. you know, it's interesting because for the way that our shamans would normally kind of navigate the ceremony is for the first honestly, anywhere between 30 minutes and an hour, there would be no singing. It would be just silence as the medicine was starting to settle in and people were connecting.
Then they would start the Icaros. And then for the remaining, night, you know, five or six or however many hours, there would be periods of silence and then times where they would sing again. And so it was both.
And I found it so interesting just to see the different responses of the guests in terms of who, because it would always be, some people really, really loved the music and that brought out a really powerful experience for them, and they would find the silence to be really challenging and then vice versa.
Like some people just loved the silence and that was the most powerful for them. And then the music would maybe be more challenging. So it's just interesting to see how different people respond to each one. Yeah.
Adrian: It is. And I also want to acknowledge as we're holding this paradox and we're coming up on our time, I want to come back to something I know that you and I discussed at the beginning which is wanting to emphasize in this is that, I think a lot of the healing does come through community and through connection.
I shared that I was at the psychedelic conference in Aspen and that was an important theme. And sometimes that's something that gets lost in our individualistic culture and I'm guilty of this, we can then approach our relationship to psychedelics or a spiritual journey in this individualistic way.
And it's really important to like open. Take advantage of the these medicines the way they open us to connection with ourselves and nature, but also other people. And and that's a real gift of them as well.
So being conscious of ways that we're doing that, you know in terms of maybe the design of the space but also an integration and I'm wondering just in closing do you have any advice for people what you learned in terms of facilitating greater connection, perhaps, you know, integrating things in terms of a community and being in relationship more?
Danielle: Yeah, I mean in terms of community, like, And this is going to be unique to each person, of course, but I, I really have seen and experienced for myself that that human connection makes such an incredible difference when it comes to the integration with the medicine and also just like the human experience in general.
So, yes, it's about balance. Like, I am someone who really appreciates my time alone. Like, it's super important to me, especially after so many years of never having any time alone. And I mean, not even having it as an option.
So I value solitude. I think it's really important. And also, I know that there are times when I've spent too much time alone, and I've felt the impact of that.
Like, I almost start to feel just empty when I'm not connecting with people to a certain extent. And I think that like, it's bringing us back to the truth that we are all connected. We are all one. And I believe that like beyond anything else.
So to have that human connection is the greatest gift that I've experienced.
And I think it can be really challenging for a lot of people because especially going into the ayahuasca experience, a lot of people don't know anyone who is like on the same page or maybe they've never worked with ayahuasca, they're not interested.
Like they're working a nine to five in New York and like no one can resonate with what they're experiencing.
So to be able to make those connections during the retreat or after the retreat is really, really important.
So first of all, if you have gone to a retreat space, amazing, like stay connected to those people afterwards because they are have gone through it with you. They've shared that experience. And so who better to like stay connected with?
And I've seen really strong bonds form from people who have been in the same groups together. So like keep that going if you can. Um, if not, or if you maybe don't go to a group experience and you have more of a one on one, just really tapping into how you can connect with people who might share similar perspectives or like be interested in similar things in the space that you live.
So whether it's going to yoga classes or like ecstatic dances or meditation groups, or it doesn't even have to be quote unquote spiritual. Like what do you enjoy? Do you like to go hiking? Go and, you know, do like a cool meetup group where you go hiking with people, be out in nature.
And sometimes like, you know, I, I do say things that are similar, but also how can we connect with people who aren't the same?
Like how can we mix and, and meet people who have different perspectives, like maybe putting ourselves outside of our comfort zones in that way and doing something that we wouldn't normally do to meet new people. So, just finding ways to connect.
Um, and I want to acknowledge that that's not always easy for people in person. And I wish that that was always the case, but if not, like we are, we are lucky in a way that we can connect like digitally nowadays.
There's challenges to that, absolutely. And we have to be careful because I think a certain amount of time on social media can have the opposite effect. But like I have formed connections with people who I've never met in real life because of, the internet and our ability to connect in that way.
So if that is your only option then there's really beautiful connections and communities that can be formed online as well.
That's part of why I started my Youtube channel because I love connecting with people and I literally can say that I'm friends with people who I've never met like from people reaching out from my Youtube videos, which is super cool.
So yeah, just like finding the ways to make those human connections and the last thing that I'll say on that note is I think it's equally as important to evaluate the relationships that we already have.
Um, and really be able to recognize when it's time to maybe let go of certain relationships because every single person that is in our lives is going to impact the person that we are and the energy that we hold.
So, it can be super challenging, but just kind of taking a look at who is in your life, and maybe recognizing if there are any relationships that, like, we need to distance ourselves from, or maybe shift the energy in that relationship, just like, yeah, really kind of assessing that as well.
Adrian: That could be a whole nother podcast. I mean, it's an important topic, I think.
Learning to be like in, in Buddhism, there's a lot of talk of like, especially Mahayana Vajraya, being a bodhisattva, compassionate person for other people.
And I think that can be really wonderful, but it's also important to be really conscious of boundaries.
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: And there's also just something to be said for self awareness, knowing yourself, like other people, it's that whole, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time
with,
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: You know, and other people's energy is going to affect you. Like you don't want to be one of those people is all like, oh, so and so, you know, like you don't want to be around people who are suffering because you're afraid of taking in their energy.
You don't want to take it to open to being with other people. But there are certain people, there's a time for seasons, you know, and maybe this relationship was supportive at one point in your life, and it can be tricky to let it go, but maybe it's time to let it go, or it's time to draw a boundary.
And that's a really important part of wisdom and discernment, I think.
Danielle: The discernment piece is huge because I just want to like hone in on what you said. It's so true.
We don't want to just drop every relationship that we feel like has any form of challenge or negativity.
Like, that's one thing that I found really interesting is a lot of times I would see people leave the ayahuasca retreat and And they just kind of have this mindset of like, well, I just need to cut every connection to all of my family and all my old friends because they don't understand what I've been through.
And they're like, you know, they're not, uh, it's almost like this comparison game of they're not at this spiritual level that
Adrian: right. As opposed to me, not on my level. Right.
Danielle: Yeah, um, and so we have to be really careful. Like we don't just have to cut everybody out of our lives and it's still important to to, yeah, we don't wanna ever bring in this kind of like, spiritual judgment. That's defeating the purpose.
Um, but yeah, having discernment, having discernment is important.
Adrian: And I also want to say though, I think there can be a phase to that. Like I there can be an initial phase where it's appropriate to sort of more monastic, retreat-like, but then at a certain point, there's more of a, it's the hero's journey. know, there's leaving the world, but then there's a deeper engagement.
You just don't want to stay stuck there and never try to be interested in helping other people, or being with people who are challenging because when other people are suffering, you have to realize why is it tough to be around someone who's suffering? It's like, it's because really, like, there's something within myself or within oneself that doesn't want to be present to that, you know?
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: Um, so I think it can be helpful. Yeah. Just like, I would encourage people, just because I just went to this, but like, if you're newer to psychedelics and you're, you had a great experience or if you even just like are interested in trying it, I'd encourage people to go to a psychedelic conference.
I just went to two great ones, Horizons in New York and the Aspen Psychedelic Symposium and Horizons is having another one in, in October in Portland.
It just it's really great to meet other people in this space and feel that connection. And to your point about meeting people with different viewpoints.
I think one great thing I discovered about that, it was great because we had these shared connections and interests being into psychedelics, but actually people had very different viewpoints in terms of how they relate to it.
I felt for me in particular, like coming from more of a, a meditation, like Buddhist background, most people had a very different approach to it.
And it was great to hear that. And it's, it's great that there are different ways of, of making meaning of it that are legitimate. But, I just encourage people to, to check that out.
Danielle: I love that. Do you have any other thoughts on just ways to connect with people and how to kind of like incorporate that into integration?
Adrian: By the way, I think, yeah, listening to your new podcast. I think you should be a podcast host. You did like a jujitsu move where you started interviewing me on my own podcast.
It was I think, I think you're a great, a great podcast host in the making.
Just gonna be launching you, yeah, I think it's, well, a big thing is paying attention to your feelings and your intuition and not getting, okay like, having a view or just like with an intention in a ceremony, you can have a little bit of a framework, but hold it lightly, right?
Because things are going to shift. So for example, if I say a particular formula or framework that's helpful, it might be helpful in general or at a particular point, but then things will change
Danielle: Yeah.
Adrian: and then it'll shift to something else.
So, I think about it this way through three things. It's always about connection. So it could be about connection to self, to nature, or to others. So then I, after my medicine journey, in not just the next day, but the weeks afterwards, I just kind of feel into that and number one, I try to balance a little bit of all three of those,
Danielle: Mm hmm.
Adrian: but I feel into what feels right in this particular moment in time.
So if there's more silence and stillness, maybe I'll be sitting more in meditation, listening to Dharma talks, going on a walk in nature, having maybe some more coaching calls with my teachers or with other practitioners.
Maybe there are times when it's really way more about the connection, and I'm not sitting much in meditation at all, and I'm just going to do a lot of spending time with friends and family and going to conferences and being a lot more social.
I've done both, you know, and so I think it's good to have that framework of connection to self, connection to nature, and connection to others. And then you've got a bit of a practice, or habits, or people, within each of those. But the big thing is not just being with the story around, oh, I should be doing And it's be with the feeling that at this time, how do I want to balance of those?
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely.
Adrian: How about you?
Danielle: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I find that it's like dropping any judgment around what I should be doing is really important because I'll go through waves like I will go through months at a time where I love sitting and being in like that kind of seated, silent meditation.
And then all of a sudden one day, that's just like the last thing that I want to do.
And I want to dance and I want to be more embodied in the kind of meditative space that I'm in, or I want to just be outside in nature walking barefoot and that's my form of meditation.
So, not having any rules around what it's supposed to look like and just, like you said, allowing for the kind of intuitive flow and process of it.
I find oftentimes for me as well, it's like less about what I'm doing and more about what I'm making sure that I'm not doing.
So a really big one for me is not being into social media too much, like not being on my phone. So the disconnection in that aspect, actually.
Because there's a huge difference for me between going out on a walk in nature, and just being with myself and being with the sounds of nature around me versus like going on a walk and I have my phone and I'm listening to a podcast or like kind of having that sensory input at the same time, two vastly different experiences.
So, um, that's like, it's just getting to know yourself, I think, and really honoring what you need and what resonates in that moment, yeah.
Adrian: Yeah, and I would say that's a good point, next day, it's good to limit screen time. Day before, day of day after, and in particular social media.
I kind of took that as a, as a given. I'm glad you made it explicit cause I don't love spending tons of time on social media. So I'm glad said that.
But for me it's different. You got other things with screen time that hooked me. So it's just good to be, be conscious of that.
Danielle: Yeah. I, I joke that it's like very ironic that I've started a YouTube channel because I really don't want to spend very much time on social media, but, it's just balance. Yeah.
Adrian: That's why I hire people to help me who are doing a wonderful job. you, Stephie and Gillian for doing it because I do not want to be there
Danielle: exactly.
Adrian: Um, so Danielle, thank you so much for your time. This was so much fun. Really enjoyed it. And I want to give you a chance to let people know where they can find you
Danielle: sure, sure. I'm in the process of creating a website, so I'll have to get back to you once that's completed.
But for now, honestly, the best place is just through my YouTube channels. So I have one that is more of like my, standard YouTube channel sharing like messages, spirituality, health and wellness.
And that's just my name. So it's just Danielle Rateau and I can send that to you, the spelling, so that we can post that somewhere.
Um, and then I also have a Reiki and ASMR YouTube channel as well. So that's just Danielle ASMR. So those are like the two ways to connect at the moment.
Adrian: Great. And your main offering is Reiki at the moment. Is that correct?
Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I do in person and distance Reiki sessions and then I can also make custom Reiki and ASMR videos if that's something that anyone's interested in.
Adrian: Great. Excellent. Danielle, thanks so much for your time. This was
Danielle: a lot of fun. I know it was really fun. I appreciate it.