Tantra Yoga: Journey To Unbreakable Wholeness Part 2
Episode 18 with Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma is the second part of a two-part conversation with Todd Norian, the founder of Ashaya Yoga®. The conversation centers on Tantra Yoga and how it offers a nondual and joyous framework for understanding life.
The episode picks up with Todd sharing his journey of integrating body, mind, and heart through Tantra Yoga. This opens the discussion on topics such as the metaphysics of Shaiva Shakta Tantra, concerns within traditional guru culture, how Tantra supports emotional agility, and the importance of courage and compassion when sitting with discomfort.
The dialogue wraps up with an introduction into Ashaya Yoga, and is an insightful episode on navigating spiritual teachings while emphasizing personal growth and emotional understanding.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introducing Todd Norian
02:58 The Metaphysics Of Tantra Yoga
09:10 Transcendence and Immanence in Tantra
16:24 Navigating Teacher-Student Relationships
26:58 Using Tantra Yoga To Explore And Accept Emotions
45:51 The Three C's of Emotional Agility
Guest Bio:
Todd Norian, E-RYT 500, YACEP, internationally acclaimed yoga teacher, founder of Ashaya Yoga, author of Tantra Yoga: Journey to Unbreakable Wholeness, A Memoir, musician, acharya in Blue Throat Yoga, and a Kripalu Legacy Faculty, teaches classes, workshops, retreats, and teacher trainings both live in-person and online, for students and teachers all over the world.
A student of yoga since 1980, Todd brings a depth of inner strength, devotion, vulnerability, and an unapologetic sense of humor to everything he does. Todd seeks to awaken others to their inherent potential for healing and joy by integrating the body, mind, and heart through Ashaya Yoga and meditation.
In 2012, Todd founded Ashaya Yoga®, an alignment-based, heart-centered practice which uses the five elements and the teachings from the Nondual Tantra tradition to build strength and flexibility while giving students access to a universe of power within. He is a guest teacher at many renowned spiritual centers and conferences including Kripalu Center, Omega Institute, Esalen, and the Toronto Yoga Show. As a classically trained jazz musician, Todd created several music albums for yoga and relaxation, including the world-renowned Bija: Soothing Music and Mantras for Yoga and Meditation.
Full Transcript:
Adrian: Hello, this is Adrian Baker, and welcome to Redesigning the Dharma. Today, I am speaking with Todd Norian.
Todd is an internationally acclaimed yoga teacher and founder, and seeks to awaken others to their inherent potential for healing and joy by integrating the body, mind, and heart through yoga and meditation.
Believing that yoga is a gateway for self discovery and spiritual growth, Todd founded Ashaya Yoga in 2012 to guide his students through an alignment based, heart opening practice that builds strength and flexibility while giving them access to the universe of power within.
A student of yoga since 1980, Todd brings advanced biomechanical knowledge, Tantra philosophical teachings and an unapologetic sense of humor to his online workshops and trainings.
As a classically trained jazz musician, Todd created several music albums for yoga and relaxation, including Bija, soothing music and mantras for yoga and meditation. More recently, Todd is also the author of Tantra Yoga: Journey to Unbreakable Wholeness, a memoir.
So, Todd and I have known each other through workshops and retreats through studying with, two teachers that we have in common, Douglas Brooks and Paul Mueller Ortega, both in classical Shaiva and Shakta Tantra, who have been very important for both of us.
And so that is really informed Todd's work in my own. It's very reflected in what I offer here on Sahaja Soma and on Redesigning the Dharma.
So he was really ideal guest for me to have on, and I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with him and I hope that you will as well. So without delay, here is my conversation with Todd Norian.
Well, thank you so much, Todd, for your perseverance since we had the technical difficulties in recording the second round, and so to start us off, I wanted to ask you this because I was reflecting back on the conversation we had, and I think one thing just sort of stepping back, is that a lot of people who are newer to this, and I know part of what you're doing in writing your book and part of what I'm doing on this podcast is we're trying to make some of the teachings accessible to a wider audience, and I appreciate that about your book.
Todd: Sure.
One
Adrian: thing about Shaiva Shakta Tantra, I notice in particular, as opposed to some other non dual contemplative schools I've studied in like, say, Zen or Dzogchen, is that there are a lot of metaphysics that it asks you to take on.
Not only in the sense of, oh, it's complicated, it's a lot to study. But there's also a lot of, they're basically religious claims, right? They're claims sort of about the nature of reality, And, I'm curious how you relate to these, and I'll ask how you do it personally, but I've also got in mind, for example, people who might be interested in meditation, but, they're also a modern educated person who might be a little skeptical, right?
Coming from outside the tradition, so
Do you relate to it, um, these metaphysics, for example, about the universe is basically consciousness and it's taking form as us, and the process of awakening is just sort of this conscious universe coming to recognize itself through the limited form as us. Do you take that kind of set of metaphysics as, um, truth in a sort of third person scientific sense?
Or do you say it doesn't really matter to me whether that's true because from a first person perspective, I just find that relating to it through that kind of artistic lens is helpful, or something I enjoy, or it helps me to orient to my spiritual practice in a different way.
Is that sort of third person claim relevant or not and how do you think about it personally?
Todd: Sure, thank you. A very rich question.
was just sifting through the layers, you know. It's like, wow, this is like a hot fudge sundae. Like, there's the cherry, I'm going down through the whipped cream. I hit the ice cream, it's cold. There's gotta be a little bit of chocolate in there for me, otherwise I won't go for it.
And then, oh my god, there's a brownie. We just got down to the brownie. I didn't know there was a brownie underneath that. And then the sauce, you know.
So this is a delicious conversation to have. I believe in two things. That we are the expression of the infinite nature of the universe. And just like you said, we're here to recognize the universe in ourselves in this limited form and to see ourselves in the widest angle, unconditionally with complete full acceptance of our perfect imperfections so that we can go on with the work that we're here to do on ourselves.
Everyone is here, I believe, to learn lessons. And as we're learning these lessons, which help us become better practitioners, more awake, more compassionate, maybe less selfish, but for some people, more selfish, depending on what you need. And all those needs stem from our early childhood development, so it's an embrace of our circumstance without blame, which is very hard to do, and to cultivate the skills of being ourself.
That is grounded in dealing with our lives. Dealing with reality as it is as a sacred journey, not as a mundane task of getting our to do's done. It's polishing the crystal of our divine inborn gift that's hiding in plain sight that we can't see, but we can sense.
And when we sense that, and when we embrace this life as our sacred journey, not so much back to where we came from, but it's our sacred journey of how to live in the present moment without the conditioning, without the vows.
Tantra's going to say, and even with the vows, because we can't not have vows, uh, limitations, um, issues from our childhood, grief when a parent dies, like all these things that leads us back to the simple practice of yoga is the recognition that our humanity is our own divinity, and that this is as God as it gets.
And you can put metaphysics on top of that. I love that as a mental fascination. I teach it all the time.
We are the crystallization of the divine's desire to know itself. There's a lot in that statement.
We are the crystallization, meaning we are the condensed form, earth is sky condensed. That, that sums it up. Think of the element of sky. Vast. Unbounded, free. No limitation. It holds everything. Akasha. In the Panchamahabhutas are the five elements. Akasha is the sky element, which really, it means space. Akasha is the space that holds everything.
Can we hold ourselves? Can we make space for our shadow, for our limited self, for the parts of us that we're, we're not publicly proud of, let's put it that way.
Do you see how personal this is? Do you see how psychological this is?
So when I say earth is sky condensed, all those qualities are condensed in earth. And not even one of those qualities. is inferior to the sky.
Inferior, superior is not part of it. Spirit and nature, they're one and the same, and different, at the same time. It's just, it's a paradox. But it doesn't mean that spirit is higher. Then, you might as well just say, the three chakras above are the goal. And everything below, it's trash.
I had someone say that, oh, I learned a pranayama practice and a meditation practice that was solely for raising the energy of the lower chakras to the higher chakras. I said, oh, that's nice. And then, and then she said, because that's the whole point of it, is we want to get up in the higher chakras.
I said, Poof! You know, we have these seven, six or seven chakras, depending on what system you're in, And I say, I see them as a continuum, not a stepladder. And it's a whole different vast consciousness. We have to get out of this stepladder consciousness, which is, again, the renunciate tradition, is up and out.
Tantra is, I said this last time, it's like a round trip ticket. We transcend and we embody. And the householder practice is as high as the renunciate practice. It's just a different vision, But they're, But they're, both sacred. So.
Adrian: And
before we elaborate, thank you for that, Todd.
I appreciate that and before we elaborate on some of those themes more like appreciating not only transcendence but also eminence which I think is a huge discussion beyond Tantra, beyond yoga, there's some deep sort of yearning there. We see come up again and again in spiritual circles, psychedelic scene.
I wanna ask you how you relate to these different teachings, these Tantra teachings as a practitioner and just sort of lay it out very basics for people who will be newer to this and obviously I can imagine that's complicated, but there can be quite a difference even within non dual Hindu Tantra between some of the northern flavors and the southern flavors.
And the northern flavor, which also often called Kashmir Shaivism is it's very densely philosophical, can be very heavy on the metaphysics, especially as that evolves later, in particular, in the writings of Abhinavagupta. And we've studied a lot of Abhinavagupta with our teacher Paul.
Gotten some exposure to him with Douglas Burkes as well. as I'm curious because your approach to it, and I liked what you shared there, and I resonated with it, which is you can appreciate some of the metaphysics, but it doesn't really seem what it's so much about for you.
You're about distilling it down in a practical way. And I resonate with that. I'll say for those Kashmiri Shaivite theologians and philosophers, that they are very into the metaphysics. And so I'm wondering how you, how you relate to someone like the writings of Abhinavagupta and what do you take from him that you really enjoy?
I think one thing you touched on is the equality between the transcendence and the eminence, but what do you take that you really enjoy from Abhinavagupta and then maybe what are some of those other aspects or maybe you just, how do you relate, I think maybe you alluded to it specifically to the, the density of the writings and wanting to go so much into mapping out that metaphysics of the universe.
Todd: Well, I hold them both. I like the esoteric approach and with metaphysics and all that. But it's more like, sort of a mental gymnastics to understand how it all works. And I'm really into living the embodiment through the practice asana and meditation and pranayama. So I'm I'm more about where the rubber hits the road.
How we can use these teachings to live better lives, not so much to understand how the universe works. but I think it's important to have an understanding. It's sort of like, what story are you telling yourself? And every tradition has their, cosmic story, you know, the origin of the cosmos.
I love you. like to take more of a scientific approach because I think science grabs me a little bit more than a religious story. And I know there's literalists out there who read the Bible and they say everything in the Bible is true. And I'm
Adrian: You didn't know that.
Todd: I'm
Listen, I have a lot of respect for my friend who believes that, you know, because it helps her. And, and that's why, like, I don't have any judgment about any philosophy that you buy into or story that makes you a better person.
But for me, it comes down to our interaction as people and outlook on everything that's happening in today's life, including politics and environment and, resources and everything that's going on.
So I guess, I lose some interest with the depth that Abhinavagupta will talk about and delineate and all the different levels of practice and, I just, I have not found that so helpful, but also what Paul teaches is that there are levels of consciousness and when you're at a certain level of consciousness, those teachings resonate.
I can tell you what my personal beliefs are and all that, but it almost doesn't matter because, it's like the school teacher saying, keep your eyes on your own work. You know, like, we can only look at ourselves and determine what is making us happy. what is the path that we choose? And I'm more interested in that.
So, like for instance, Abhinavagupta doesn't talk about emotional agility. He doesn't talk about bringing curiosity, compassion, and courage. He never says courage is fear walking. Like he doesn't say these pithy, psychological, very, very helpful things to help you, help us, where the rubber is hitting the road.
And at the level of our own damn emotions. That most people have no frickin idea what to do with. Emotions. And I'm like, there is a yoga of emotion. My, uh, newsletter that's going out in a couple days, I call Yogi Emoji. And it's the yoga of emotions. Because we need to get good at that. I don't care how spiritual you are.
And I, I had a spiritual teacher. He was profound, and I brought up a question that triggered him. Publicly, he shamed me. He got angry at me for asking the question. And it was like, wow, this is really out of the blue. I touched his samskara. And, in my opinion, he did not handle that appropriately.
Because when you're dealing with your samskaras, and you have to blame someone or shame someone, and especially in a teacher student, in a program experience, that's like, poof, that's really out of control.
And you know, like in my book, I do talk about, I was a follower of these so called high spiritual teachers, which they were, I'm not knocking that.
But they pretty much were developed from their heart chakra up, and they had no concept of how to manage, their sexual desires, their urge for power, and their urge for power over people, and how that shadows kindness and respect.
You know, when you have, when you have this lust for power, and like a megalomania kind of ego that's huge, you can very easily miss the relationship with other people.
The humility that's needed. Like, as we do more practices, our energy, the shakti rises. And if you're not meeting that heightened shakti with humility, there's gonna be some imbalance. Some karma's gonna take over that equalizes the field, eventually.
And, um, so I like being proactive in that. I forgot the point I was trying to make, but, uh,
Adrian: Well, that's okay. You said a lot there that was really rich, and I think this is a great example of where the rubber meets the road and I resonate with so much of what you shared there because that's what interests me
Todd: Mm.
Adrian: so much as well.
And, yeah, let me ask you for one thing on the topic of teachers,
Todd: Yeah.
cause I think
Adrian: this could be some really practical advice for a lot of people when they're trying to seek a spiritual teacher, a meditation teacher.
Todd: Mm.
This is
Adrian: a big issue in ayahuasca scene with a lot of abuse
Todd: Mm.
Adrian: with shamans, right?
Todd: Yeah, sorry
Adrian: And yeah, it's, it's, it's a very similar thing to, I think, the guru model being heightened, but it's just heightened because of the, uh, the nature of taking a psychoactive substance.
Right? Of course.
Todd: Yeah, yeah.
Adrian: I'm curious what advice would you have for people as you've written about in your book as someone who's lived through, and had these relationships, but two teachers where you went through sort of their scandals and saw the shadow and ways in which they did or did not deal with that, want to deal with that even in light of the revelation.
What advice would you have for people in terms of how do you discern wisely when you are seeking out a teacher, a coach, whatever it might be,
Todd: Well, I think you just gave it away there, it's called discernment. But consider this, that if you're too discerning, you won't get the shakti of the teacher.
Adrian: Right. Too skeptical. You're not open.
Todd: Right?
Adrian: Right.
Todd: So I would say just follow your heart. Stay connected to your heart, which is what I did. And I fell head over heels in love with the lifestyle. The practices, the teachings, and the Guru himself. Because at that time, that really filled a need I was having.
My parents were in the middle of a divorce. I had a break up with a girlfriend. And I didn't have like long relationships. We were together for like a year and a half, which is kind of long for me, I was in my early twenties and, we were breaking up. So, I had a lot of grief and emptiness and I was searching for answers.
And I think a part of me was searching for belonging and the connection to family, you know, and this was only after all, everything happened. I mean, this is in retrospect, many, many years of reflection and contemplation on what happened there.
But if I didn't follow my heart and just move in the direction of my desire, I wouldn't have received all the gifts that I got.
Including, when I look back, the gift of betrayal. Which instead of becoming an impasse, we need to learn how to make our betrayals become a rite of passage.
And if you go through life trying to avoid betrayal, you're going to miss living your life. Because I just think a beautiful quality we have is to fall in love and to trust, to trust someone.
I don't want to live in mistrust. Oh, Todd told me never to trust anybody. No, I'm not going to tell you that. I'm going to say you have to have enough of a self. And enough courage that you can surrender to the efficacy of the teaching, the efficacy of the practice, where you get a direct experience of universal consciousness.
And if you happen to fall in love with the teacher, I'm not talking about romantic love, I'm talking about just, you hold them in the highest light. That that's okay.
And I think it's needed to receive, to receive the teaching. But then you do have to step back and look at who you just put up on a pedestal and try to take them off gently, with compassion, because they're people too.
And I think I can say, be aware of those teachers that say they're enlightened. I think the sign of mismanagement of their energy is when anyone, and I don't care how great they are, saying that they've reached the end of their journey. They might as well just say, I'm better than you. Just, it's bullshit. It's bullshit. And they can use that to take advantage of you.
So, I don't need my teachers anymore to be perfect human beings, and I accept their humanity, even if they don't.
So there's a responsibility on us as students, the Adhikara, it's, it's um, partially it means studentship. We have to take responsibility, which I didn't, and that's why I got into these, teachers and then the betrayal happened, which I'm not knocking, that was my path. But I think we need to cultivate studentship, and it's just having discernment to release ourselves from the limitation of the expectation of perfection.
We project that onto other people because that's what we value in us. It's taken me a long time to value a world of non perfection over perfection, and to tell myself that this world of non perfection is perfection. So my initial impulse of seeking perfection is still good, it's just I'm not seeking it in perfection.
Adrian: I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah and I think part of it too, you know, in terms of the discernment part, right? It's paying attention to the heart, right, I like that advice,
Todd: Yeah.
Adrian: But in a non reactive way as well, So it's not just being swept up in a moment, it's also when you're in those quiet, more still moments, you know, how do you feel and listening to the heart.
The other thing too, and I feel you've alluded to this in different ways when you talked about Abhinavagupta not talking about emotions and the, yoga of emotions, we can bring in other modalities, pieces of wisdom like we're living in the 21st century, we can honor that. That's all part of the dynamism of the Shakti.
Todd: Exactly.
Adrian: It's taking advantage of everything there is now. And for example, learning a little bit like what are some of the behavior traits of a narcissist?
Todd: Yes.
Adrian: How do they treat other people when they're not in front of a crowd.
Todd: Good.
Adrian: Or just in other situations, right? And just paying attention to that as well,
Todd: Yeah.
Adrian: there's that balance between the feelings and also the intellect and reason.
Todd: And from the student perspective, how to learn from a narcissist.
Adrian: Say more about that.
Todd: Well, like narcissism doesn't necessarily have to be bad. And I think in sort of the more attractive spiritual teachers...
I guess the spiritual teachers that I've been attracted to have had some component of narcissism. Yeah. And I don't know if that goes hand in hand with the spiritual teaching or if that's just a, personality flaw that can be dragged along with spirituality.
But I've just seen it so many times. It's this need to be right, this belief that I am right and that you're wrong and I have the way and this is the way and there's no other way.
I think these are some of the, traits. So, I agree with you, we have to be mindful of is this person a narcissist and how extreme are they?
Because there's the malignant narcissist, okay? And that's someone who's completely blind to their actions. They have zero empathy for other people.
I would say, stand clear of those people. Because I don't know that you're going to get much from them. I can't say that the teachers I studied with were that level of narcissism, I think there was a certain amount.
But I also felt when they were off the stage that I had a personal connection with them that felt real. Um, so I think it really comes back to how do you feel in your heart about this person. And to also know that you're not supposed to give all of your power over to somebody.
So, you keep your power and be open and receptive to get the teaching and try to understand and learn from this teacher. But, as a student, it's our responsibility to make those teachings work for us. You know, not to take the teaching in with shame. Even if it's delivered with shame.
It's like, I have a shame screen now. It's like a shame filter. Because I've been shamed so many times, like I recognize it right away. And it no longer hurts me. Because I, I'm just there. And I don't see it as, oh that's on me, I must be a bad person. No, I'm solid. But if that other person, that teacher needs to, get their teaching across through shaming I just, I see it as, meh, it's... That's not so conscious right there. that's a compensation for some other insecurity.
So, I don't know, I'm just trying to be open, and another thing you alluded to which I really liked was, I think we're living in an age where it's not necessary to buy in to the full teaching only. That you can bring other teachings in that make sense.
Like I, even when I was studying in the other methods, I guess I can name it, so I was in the Anussara method and that method was primarily about physical alignment and spiritual joy.
And I had so much spiritual joy there because every class was the essence of our true nature is joy. And also the, founder of Anusara Yoga back in that time, it was like a comedian. It was just super funny.
And I was coming out of a dark period. I was betrayed by my guru at Kripalu. Okay, so I was like kind of down on yoga and gurus, I was just trying to find myself. So I was carrying a dark gloomy, I've just been through this intensity. And I needed lighthearted, I needed what Anusara had to give. It was perfect.
But what was missing for me was embracing the shadow in a real world way. Like where the rubber hits the road. We didn't focus on what we were feeling. In fact, when someone had an emotion release in classes, often the teacher would go up to them and make a little joke. Like the idea was, Oh, don't be sad, get happy.
Adrian: It's all love and light kind of feel, not wanting to be with the shadow.
Todd: Yes, and um, So that's false positivity, and false positivity is a way to control the emotions.
I mean, we can control our emotions today in so many ways. As soon as we get a little uncomfortable, as soon as we feel discomfort, I mean, this is the issue. We have discomfort with our discomfort. And so, at the click of a button, we can upgrade our iPhone, if you don't like your iPhone. You don't like a text conversation, you just mute or you block that person. You're feeling really lonely and sad, you can just binge watch Netflix. Like, there's all these ways, it's so quick, you can change your state right away.
And yoga is the practice of learning how to be in our discomfort. But not for the sake of discomfort. That when we stay in this uncomfortable situation, this uncomfortable emotion, emotions are signposts to something deeper. And when you stay in the discomfort of an emotion without having to resolve it right away, that discomfort starts to reveal the light of what you truly value and what really matters to you.
And I had this conversation with a friend and we were arguing and, we just had two different points of view, and before we knew it, we were escalating, and we both thought we were right, and I was trying to convince her that I was right, she was trying to convince me that she was right, and we stopped listening to each other.
And after that conversation, you know, I felt, I felt really agitated. So I took that feeling of agitation to my yoga mat, and I just sat with it, and I said, man, I'm really squirming in this agitation, like I want to do anything to get me out of it. I just took a deep breath and I stayed. I said, yeah, this is like holding pigeon pose. Alright, so let me try to hold this emotion like I'm holding the pigeon pose. I can hold pigeon pose for a long time.
So, but emotions, it's a different kind of discomfort. It's like excruciating pain. And it's unresolved. So stay in the unresolved. And as I did, suddenly what opened up to me was, what I found was my need to be accepted. My need to be heard. My need to be understood.
And that led me to deeper feelings of and memories in my childhood where, I just, never measured up, you know. I wanted to be appreciated for my view, and it took me into memories of childhood shame and like this feeling of unworthiness. I said, well, that's not my intention at all.
And I got to what my deeper intention for the conversation was, is I, I really like this, I like this friend, you know, I love this, this friend, you know, at a friendship level, and I just, I want her to feel seen and heard, just as I want to feel seen and heard. And when I made that shift inside, we had another conversation, and I apologized, I said what my real need was, in this conversation, and then I started to really hear her.
And when she felt heard, guess what? She relaxed. And then the defensiveness was gone. And then she heard me. And at the end of the conversation, I got my need met. Which was to be heard and actually to feel love again. To feel harmony in the relationship.
And we made space. We agreed to disagree. And it was perfect. It was fine. I really did not need her to agree with me. I just wanted to be heard and understood.
Adrian: Most people do. That's really what's underneath the issue so much at the time.
Todd: Yeah.
Adrian: Yeah.
Todd: So what I'm saying is that discomfort is the price of admission to a life full of fullness, meaningfulness, and the embrace of all of our self, which has to include shadow and light.
So I never got the shadow training that I wanted from the methods that I was, learning. So, what happened is, in founding Ashaya Yoga, which is my method, I started focus on body, mind, and heart, you know, mind and emotions and heart, as part of this integrated whole.
That's what makes us healthy, happy, and sort of more integrated beings, is to have, yeah, physical mastery, like I want to be healthy, you know, and fit and I get fit not just through yoga, but I do like really vigorous exercise and diet. Like there's this whole thing that I do to keep my body healthy.
And then the yoga of emotions, like how am I with my emotions? Are my emotions controlling me or am I controlling my emotions? And ultimately we want to be value driven rather than emotionally driven.
I think we know that like most people that meditate, you know, you're able to find equanimity so you're not making impulsive decisions. So that's good. But do people really understand the nature of these emotions that they're good? Their, emotions are signposts to deeper needs in the body.
And then of course the heart, which is like the source of, spiritual connection and understanding and to live like we were talking about as the crystallization of the Divine's desire to know itself. Such that everything that I'm living right now is my sacred path home to my heart.
That includes my relationship with myself, all of my urges and desires, like, am I managing those things? Am I suppressing those things? Am I covering those things up?
You know, I'm about to launch a, I do a, sort of a new theme every month in my membership. And I was trying to think, like, what do I want to, focus on? And it was like, I think this month is going to be dealing with life. Just, just like, how are you dealing with life?
Because to me, that, that's the tantric path. You know, Is that our humanity is our divinity and so sometimes we have to say, how is my humanity, my divinity?
One of the teachings in Ashaya is everything in life is for our awakening. So I want to ask myself, how is this, you know, difficult emotion? How is this difficult relationship for my awakening?
Adrian: Talk about that for a sec because that's in the book and I think this is an important teaching. That reframing things so that we come to view I think in your words, please reticulate it in your own words, but that there are no mistakes. There is only opportunities for learning and growing.
And I'm sure as well, and I just want to give you the opportunity to not only explain it, but also like clarify probably some of the immediate reactions you might get from people thinking, oh, well that justifies, gaslighting or blaming the victim or you know, there's a lot of sort of, misunderstandings, I think, that immediately kind of spring up for people
Todd: Yeah.
Adrian: around that. And I'm curious, could you sort of clarify what that and is and is not when you talk about that teaching?
Todd: well, let's say everybody wants to be healthy, and we want to be healthy emotionally, we want to be clear mentally, we want to have good physical health, good relationships, we want to have harmony, like, I think these are all common themes that we're all looking for, and none of that can happen if you're playing the victim role, which is, life is happening to me, and it keeps happening to me, over and over again.
When the tantric view or... So, I have not really read it anywhere in any tantric scripture or whatever, so I'll just say in the Ishaya view, because I probably just made it up, life is happening for us. Because when you live in life is happening for me, you can then see that everything in life is for my awakening.
And as I embrace that concept, I start to shift from being a victim in life, and pretty much most of us have like a victim part of ourself that we nurture by collaborating with other victims and then we consolidate our beliefs, that it's their fault or society's problem or whatever.
My point is that we shift from victim consciousness to victory consciousness by taking full responsibility for everything that happens to us.
And not in a way that we shame ourselves, blame ourselves, I'm not saying that. But to take responsibility I think means to, reflect inwardly on how am I being inside and how have I contextualized the universe such that I'm at the effect of some negative energy coming to me.
And then we just replay that over and over again. Well, that's their fault, you know. I have no part in this. Like, I had to really look at my role in the betrayals. That, yeah, I was susceptible, I was gullible. And I, I was kind of a, I call it shadow hugging, where, you know, shadow boxing is when you judge somebody for the qualities that you haven't embraced in yourself.
You know? So I gotta share this one, cause my dad, he died. some years ago, but he was so funny and I love him dearly, but he used to just judge the hell out of people and it bothered me like so much. I mean, and he was, and he knew, I said, dad, you're judging. He said, yeah, I know.
You know, he was just, he was proud of his judgments, you know, but I got activated every time. You know, I was shadow boxing with him until I realized that that judging, I had that judging part inside of myself. That I wasn't willing to embrace.
Adrian: You were judging him for being judgmental?
Todd: Yes, and also I saw his trait project out in all different areas of my life. And so, as I started to accept that about myself, and start to release the judgment, like it wasn't doing anything positive for me, it was actually creating separation.
That once I like processed, I don't like the word processed, once I really dealt with that. I came to terms with my judgmental nature and applied love and acceptance and I softened around it. You know, judging is, it calls to a deeper need inside that wasn't being met. And for me that need was just to feel like a sense of belonging in a way.
That when I went back to visit my dad and he went into his rampage, which is typical of judging, I had no activation. I was, I was cool with it, and I could still call out on it, but not from a place that I was avoiding it in myself. It was, you know, wanting to really support him to, you know, is that really helpful to call so and so, the asshole son in law, or whatever he would say.
And, I think he did, towards the end of his life, he was really starting to shift. I really worked on him a lot. Cause he was prickly on the outside and really mushy and so beautiful on the inside, you know.
And he, I'll say this one last thing because I learned music from him. He played the trumpet. And whenever he played the trumpet, that beautiful love of life would come through.
And uh, he divorced my mom, of course, but when they were in love, he always ended his gigs, cause he, he played these, You know, weddings, bar mitzvahs, and all these things, and if my mom was there in attendance, the last song was always dedicated to her.
And it was Tenderly. I forget who that's by, but a classic jazz standard, Tenderly. And um, I remember as a kid, I would just start crying, because there was so much love coming from him to my mom, and then my mom would just like start glowing, and anyway, anyway. I, I had some of those memories which are really, really great.
Um, so we need to take responsibility for everything that happens inside of us in order to shift from a very small place of being the victim of everything to being victorious.
And I keep learning more and more about this and I, um, I have a, psychologist friend, several psychologists friends, they helped me too, with their learning and everything, is that the victim also inherits the victimizer.
So you can't just be a victim and not also play the other side and be a victimizer of other people.
Adrian: That is what's missina lot from our culture now. It's this oppressed victim paradigm. And we don't see the complexity that the victim can also be the perpetrator or has been in the past.
Todd: Exactly. So, you know, not to get so much into our emotions, but, I mean, you can make a case like the metaphysics of spirituality, I like to say, needs to be met with the intelligence behind emotions such that we come to a greater understanding. Now in that understanding is peace. In that understanding is self mastery.
And I think to be really conscious, enlightened, at peace within yourself. You have to deal at all the levels. And I've taken that on personally, like in my life, I've taken that on personally as my spiritual practice. I don't feel a distinction between spiritual and emotional, and physical. Like, I did a bike ride today, and I was so in the zone.
You know, and I felt exhausted at times. Okay, I'm just going to go to my breath now. And as soon as I breathe, like the energy and the power from my core It transfers down into your legs.
There's a whole thing in exercise that I... I really love because I'm cultivating my endurance and I'm getting faster. You know, I swam a 5K race up in Lake George, New York, two weeks ago and I actually did it. My goal was just to finish the race and I did and it's like, wow, there's, there's the levels of unlimited energy that we can access through the physical body.
so I, I'm just, I'm kind of in a renaissance of, I, I'm age--, I'm not getting any younger, like I'm aging, but my physical health and sort of vitality is increasing gradually.
it's like how, how, how, how can that happen? And I
Adrian: go ahead.
Todd: Well, I just finished this and I think it's because the Tantra at least that I'm How I hear the Tantra, you know Tantra is passed from ear to ear. It's not what they're saying It's what you're hearing me say. because that's that's your Tantra and I want you to hear these words and then make them your own so that you create your own source of inspiration based, maybe I inspired it or, you know, I think we're all catalysts for each other.
But I think this idea of the spiritual and the mundane, like to see with eyes of grace is making the mundane magical. Is making the ordinary extraordinary, which doesn't require any external change. It's all that internal alchemical combustion when one recognizes that we are the embodiment of the vast unbounded spirit itself, wanting to reveal itself to us, which is hiding in plain sight.
Adrian: I was listening to a teaching from Sally Kempton the other day, and she read Spandakarika verse 30, which is one translation where something is perceiving the universe as play. Or he who perceives the universe as play, is liberated immediately.
And I just love that, that, that coming back. It's sort of what we were talking about with Abhinavagupta. It's not about whether the metaphysics, the claim is true, it, it's inviting that sense of Leela, of it's all part of the play that shifts in a bodily way, the way that we're relating to our experience.
Todd: That's, that's so beautiful.
Adrian: Yeah, and emotional agility goes right along with that.
Todd: Yeah, I know, it's like, and so we have to ask ourselves, Are you having enough play in your life? Cause we can get all super serious about our spiritual practice and all that, and even our emotions and some of the stuff I'm saying is, it's really deep.
So it's just noticing, you know, it's like we're multifaceted diamonds, basically, and we have all these amazing facets to explore. And one of those, for sure, is play. It's a big one.
Adrian: Definitely. And, um, wanted to ask on that note, you know, you talked about the importance of... You came to appreciate the importance of emotional intelligence and I wanted to ask what teachers or teachings or practices have been very important in terms of learning those skills, learning to engage the shadow more directly. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how you started to bring that into your practice?
Todd: Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, it started way back with my Kripalu training. We did a lot of emotional work, shadow work there, and there's exercises that I do in my workshops and specifically my teacher trainings because we have time to really go deep.
And there's one that I call cultivating loving presence, which is to understand that when we're wanting to help a loved one, that instead of giving them advice or telling them how to do something that our capacity to listen with unconditional love is healing in and of itself.
And it's hard to believe that until you actually enter into a diad experience. So I have this whole guided experience with meditation on how to release the need to change someone, how to release the need to help them because so many, like we listen, but we just want to help them, which comes from a really good place, but our role in being a listener is not to help, not to try to fix them.
Because even if they start sharing and they break down and they have tears, they're not broken. So there's nothing to fix. You can't fix them because there's nothing that's broken. And it sets up a whole different attitude of how to hold a compassionate, loving space. So, I'd say a lot, and there's lots of exercises like that, that I was just trained in, so I offer that in my courses.
More recently, I've listened to several podcasts where this Harvard medical, researcher called, Dr. Susan David, she's the author of Emotional Agility. She has several other books too.
And to just hear her speak about the importance of emotions as signposting our values. And one of the techniques that she gives, it's really just an understanding, is she says bring the three C's to all of your emotions as a way to help you focus and get clear.
And the first C is compassion. Now, compassion helps you recognize the struggle that we're all in, and it just brings more empathy, you know, when you're listening to someone or even applying it to yourself, you have a difficult emotion, bring compassion to it.
She also teaches about creating separation from the emotion by instead of saying, I am sad, or I am angry. Which really what the brain registers linguistically is all of me, a hundred percent of me is sad, which is not true. Even while being sad, we might have other parts that appreciate life and we have some gratitude in there.
We're never a hundred percent sad. So she recommends creating a linguistic separation. This is for the brain to say, I'm noticing I'm feeling sad. Or I'm having a moment of anger.
Adrian: Interesting. It's like it's very similar to the Vipassana noting. For example, you can take the eye out completely and just say there is sadness,
Todd: Exactly. I, they're very similar. Maybe the exact same technique. So that's compassion.
And then, the second C she says is, you know, meet the emotion with curiosity. And curiosity brings a sense of humility. And we want to learn more. I want to understand, where is that emotion coming in my example I gave you, I felt agitated after this, but we describe our emotions in general terms. Agitation is general.
you know, when you ask someone, how are you doing? They say, I feel stressed. Stress is general. You know, I feel overwhelmed. And so if you start to go from general to more granular, That stress could be a feeling of loneliness or sadness.
It could include not feeling seen. I mean that's what, like my agitation was not feeling seen or heard. And it led to me remembering my pattern of just feeling not enough. Like I diminish myself or I feel unworthy and what she's saying is with curiosity, it helps you get to the underlying value that the emotion is signposting.
So curiosity helps you to understand more, you know, well, what led to this emotion? What did that person say that triggered this? What's the trigger? Where did that come from in my childhood? Or where have I seen that before?
So curiosity gets us asking more questions to sort of tease out the amazing complexity of just stress. You know, there's much more than that.
And if you can name what it is, you have much better capacity to then learn how to deal with it. It's when we can't know what we're feeling, we'll never be able to get to what our need is, and we remain the victim of our emotion. Which is how we nurture being a victim in life. So emotional mastery is making a strong decision. I want to be in control of my emotions, not the other way around.
And then the third C is courage. Because it does take courage to sit in the discomfort of emotional pain. I'm not saying it's easy. Tremendous courage. You even want to look at the process at all.
Why courage? Because you have to be vulnerable. You have to let go in a certain way. You have to let go of your persona, your image. And, you know, we know that courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is not letting fear stop us from following our heart or playing a bigger game.
And I just love what, Susan David defines courage as. She says courage is fear walking. And it just feels so human. That feels so spiritually unspiritual.
And this is kind of the teaching I don't hear from the gurus and the big spiritual teachers. You know, like they have a need to show up as perfection. Because that's what they're teaching. And I'm telling you, they're the embodiment of non perfection.
And when I teach, I mean, I, maybe I self deprecate a little too much. But, like, I'm taking myself off the pedestal immediately. So that my students see that I'm just, I'm just like them. Because I, I am.
I'm like as confused and floundering and, you know, I have my moments, you know, of loneliness and all, I go through the full range. And maybe the only thing that's different is I've been holding all those emotions without any judgment at all, been able to give more compassion.
I work with these three C's so that, these states of sort of diminished emotions or negative emotions, we should call them, don't throw me off balance quite so much and I'm able to, embrace those parts of me and just choose to do better next time, to like, constantly wanting to, bring more of my best self forward as much as I can.
So I don't know, there's a humility that just, comes with the process. And I think the best teachers they show that. I think they, they show that. And it's, it's lovely when they do.
Adrian: Yeah, that notion of perfection really is part of the shadow of these Indians and Indo Tibetan. I mean, all the traditions that came from India, that notion of Siddha, perfected, complete, done.
Todd: Yeah.
Adrian: It's a huge shadow. So I appreciate the way that you're bringing in these other teachings and practices and ha, conscious of your time but just thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
Really really enjoyed this conversation and I love how we went from talking about that student at one point who wanted to go up the chakras. We went from the height of Abhinavagupta's tantra loka down to childhood emotions. So see, we were modeling that going down the chakras is just as legitimate.
Todd: Yes, it is.
Adrian: Transcendence
Todd: Yeah. And just as important.
Adrian: Just as important and all part of the process of awakening. It's not something separate. It's something synergistic.
Todd: Beautiful.
Adrian: Yeah. And so thank you so much Todd, and I want to give you the opportunity to share with the audience where they can find you any offerings you have...
Todd: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, well go to my website, which is ashyayoga. com, A S H A Y A Y O G A. uh, you can click on events. I'm doing all kinds of workshops. Mostly, you know, sort of east of the Mississippi. Uh, I do occasionally go out to California and teach some, because I have family out in California, southern California.
So yeah, and my teacher training, I mean, I don't know when this is going to post, but it's starting. In about two weeks from now, so if this gets posted, but they can check it out. And that is my 200 hour teacher training, which is really an advanced level training for teachers and aspiring teachers because the philosophy is so new to people.
And then the method of Ashaya yoga, which uses four essentials behind every pose and those four essentials relate to the five elements, which relates to that whole cosmic chart of the tattvas, of the metaphysics of Abhinavagupta. But we work with the five elements, which is how to embody more and more this idea that our humanity is our divinity.
And uh, of course I teach regularly at Kripalu about three times a year. Have a New Year's retreat there. I have an October retreat that's a very beautiful retreat environment where people go really, really deep 'cause there's so much peace and quiet there in a beautiful setting.
And of course my membership, which is online, people can do it from anywhere. I have people from all over the world tuning in. It's every Tuesday and Thursday morning. And what I give is each month we do a new mantra. So we do mantra japa, which is slow repetitions of the mantra, pranayama, tantric meditations. I might do a whole set on the chakras. We do yoga nidra, I have gentle yoga, I have deep core yoga, because I'm very, you know, I exercise a lot, I work out in the gym, like I'm, I can get very, very physical, which the students love, but they hate while, while we're doing it, because no one really wants to work on their core, but it feels really, really good.
Adrian: No. No one does, but it's so important.
Todd: It's, it's so good for us,
Adrian: Yeah, well thank you much, Todd.
Todd: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity and the exposure and just, you know, anytime we can talk about Tantra, I think is a really good day. I hope the listeners can find some parts to really make their own that they resonate with and just grow that piece of it. You don't have to accept the whole thing, but find something that really resonates with you. Take the spark of inspiration and put it to good use in your life.
yeah, you're so easy to talk to, Adrian. You just, ask good questions and then you just let me rattle off the rattle is done.
Adrian: Thank you. Really enjoyed, uh, really enjoyed speaking with you. You're very easy to talk to as well have a lot of wisdom to share. It's obvious in your case that it's not just through studying, but really a lot of life experience. So that came through in your book and in our conversation so thank you so much.
Todd: Thank you so much, too.
Adrian: Okay. Great. All right. Take care.
Todd: Bye for now.
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